Unlikely Allies Episode 1: Jeremy Hinson & Peter Verdin

Unlikely Allies Ep 1 Jeremy & Peter

2026-10-16 14:19:32

00:00:05 JeremyWhen it was all over, he admitted to abusing 30 people from 1986 to 2009.

00:00:13 PeterAnd I think the confusing thing about abuse is it doesn’t start with this horror story.It starts with being chosen, and he chose me.

00:01:00 Jim ColeJeremy, you want to tell us a little bit about yourself?

00:01:03 JeremyMy name is Jeremy Henson. I’ve been a law enforcement professional for over 27years. I currently supervise a special victims unit and domestic violence unit in alocal sheriff’s office in the state I live in. Before that, I retired from Fairfax CountyPolice Department, which is where I met Peter during my tenure there.

00:01:25 PeterAnd I am Dr. Peter Verdin. I am from Boise, Idaho. I don’t carry the doctor title veryoften. People at work know me as Doctor Pete. Most people know me as Pete orPeter, or my two kids call me Daddy. Or now my son calls me Bruh, and I’vegraduated a Bruh. I have a PhD in Human and Sport Performance. My specialty areawas pediatric motor learning. I’ve spent my whole career measuring performancein.

00:01:58 PeterThe numbers that are on paper, and underneath that measurement, my body wasliterally falling apart. I had a nervous system shaped by abuse in the most criticalyears of my life, and now just trying to figure that out, and just putting names tosome of these things that I’ve experienced over the last many years.

00:02:20 Sonny Von ClevelandI think we’re going to get into a very in-depth discussion about that very particularthing. I think it’s important that we start right from the start with the way that youtwo met. There is a reason why you are on this podcast. It’s unlikely allies podcast,and we all know what this podcast is. Let’s start back at the start of how you twomet.

00:02:46 PeterI actually have a question for Jeremy to start because I asked this question last

night and said I would save it for today. The first time I met Jeremy, my mom hadcalled me in my dorm room and let me know what was going on with John, JohnHamilton, my abuser. She asked me, “Did this happen to you?” I said, “It did.” I justbroke down in my college dorm room. She wanted to help, and I said, “No, I got it.Just give me his number, and I’ll give him a call.” I hung up the phone with my momand called Jeremy.

00:03:26 PeterAnd I honestly don’t remember what I said.

00:03:30 Sonny Von ClevelandYou remember that phone call?

00:03:32 JeremyI remember it clearly. I had just ended a long day at work and had just gottenhome. I had two young kids at home, and my phone rang and it was an unknownnumber. We’d been getting a lot of phone calls because after this case, this arrest,we did a press release and asked for people to come forward with information. Somy phone had been ringing offthe hook. This was a big deal. This guy was knownin the community, far and wide. I had a phone call. I didn’t recognize the number. Iwent down to my basement, took the phone call, and I knew Peter’s name. I knewhe was someone I wanted to talk to because I was finally getting young men toopen up to me about John Hamilton.

00:04:21 Sonny Von ClevelandLet’s take a quick step back. John Hamilton is who we’re here talking about today.Who is John Hamilton, and tell us a little bit about that case. How did you build up toleading to this phone call?

00:04:33 JeremyThankfully now John resides in the Virginia Department of Corrections, so that’s whohe is now, and hopefully he stays there for the rest of his life. But I guess this casestarted for me back in February two thousand nine. I know it started much earlierfor Peter, but I’ll let him fill in some of those details. I went to my job. I was adetective at Fairfax County Police Department. I was on the child abuse squad, andthe child abuse squad investigates sexual abuse and physical abuse of children. Soit was a pretty tough, challenging job. I had been in that role for probably over ayear and a half, so kind of had a good footing in the investigation. And my boss atthe time called me and was like, “Hey, I gave you.”

00:05:21 JeremyA case that I’m getting a lot of feedback on. I was like, “Oh, what are you talkingabout?” He’s like, “Oh, it’s going to be tough, but I want you to work it.” And he goes,“You know the guy John Hamilton from the Mount Vernon District, and that’s thepatrol area where I worked as a patrol officer, and then as a detective, I had a lot of

cases there.” I was like, “I know who this is.” John was one of these guys that justwanted to make a friend with everyone. He had a lot of different roles. And this iskind of a long story, so apologize. We’re here for the long stories. John’s familyowned Wick Sporting Goods, and part of the the contracts at that company was todo all the embroidery for the schools. Any team that had, you know, good teamstravel, schools, you name it, Parks and Rec. If they were in the south end, east sideof the county, they went to this company.

00:06:21 JeremyIt was John’s dad’s company, and John and his mom were running it at the time.They did all the police polo embroidery, specialty teams. They did. They had it.Everybody knew who they were. John also worked. I don’t know. You might notknow some of these things, but he was a manager at a Domino’s pizza, in the northend of that patrol district. And cops love discount food. Well, John gave free food, soall the cops that came and ate for free. John was the manager. He’d bring them outfree pies. If you worked a midnight shift and you wanted food, John fed you. So hehad a lot of connections. This is the point I’m trying to get across, and they werewell placed connections.

00:07:03 Sonny Von ClevelandIt’s safe to say he was a pillar of the community.

00:07:05 JeremyThat was exactly the word that I have used in other times when I’ve talked about it,and I definitely he set himself up to be a pillar of the community, and we candefinitely dive deep on that, but that was his reputation. That was how people knewhim. Everybody’s friend. I don’t know if I heard a negative thing about him. So I getthis report. I get a lot of patrol officers are calling my boss, telling me thisinvestigation should never take place. This is a lie. And the report was of childsexual abuse, and the suspect was John Hamilton.

00:07:48 JeremyAnd immediately

00:07:49 Sonny Von ClevelandYou had officers that were telling you, ‘This is not right. This is a lie. This is a lie.’ Sopeople automatically, without any evidence or knowledge of the situation, are justdefending. It’s important to know that because this is what an abuser does. Theywork their community. They groom. They groom. They groom not just the victim.

00:08:10 Jim ColeAnd I think we’ll get into it later. This case is a really great example of somethingthat I’ve realized a while ago in my cases that people think the grooming is reallyonly aimed at the victims, at the kids that they abuse, and I would argue that thegrooming is actually more aimed at the adults that surround those children, that

are or should be there to protect them, because the child ends up seeing themonster.

00:08:46 Jim ColeBut if the offender is doing their quote unquote job right, the adults will never seethe offender. They will never see the monster, and they will defend the monster.

00:08:59 Sonny Von ClevelandAnd that’s exactly what is happening here. This man is grooming the entirecommunity.

00:09:04 Jim ColeAnd I had a ton of cases with very similar pillars of the community who groomed,and we even had in some cases a lot of cases against teachers. And you’d havefellow teachers come in, even after these people pled guilty to the charges, and attheir sentencing hearing come in and testify on their behalf about what a greatperson.

00:09:28 Sonny Von ClevelandAlmost a character witness. So this is the kind of person we’re talking about whenwe’re talking about John Hamilton.

00:09:34 JeremyAnd I’ll say this as an aside to people that don’t know: I grew up in the age of watchout for the boogeyman. That’s what my mom was always looking for: strangerdanger. Growing up through that, that’s what I thought. As you go through andexperience life and your own careers, you find out. While those are terrible cases,they are very few and very far between. You’ll see them on the news. You’ll seehorrific cases like that.

00:10:06 JeremyBut the people who abuse the children, the monsters, are the people who haveaccess. That could be a parent. That could be a sibling. That could be a family friend.That could be a preacher. It could be a cop. It could be a coach. It could be anyonethat has the ability to get close and have time alone in a trusted position with achild. Those are the people who offend, and we only scratched the surface aboutreporting. You guys all know this. I’ve heard things say that sexual crimes are onlyreported about forty percent of the time. But when people are talking about that,they’re talking about typically male on female or female on male type things. Youadd in the component of a young boy being molested, and I think they’re way, wayless reported than that, and virtually unreported, at least for what is happening outthere.

00:11:03 JeremySo the majority

00:11:05 Jim ColeAnd so we kind of got a little. Getting back to that, to kind of briefing us on the case.

00:11:10 Sonny Von ClevelandWhat was your instinct when that happened? When this case comes through andyou automatically hear people coming in, this isn’t right, that’s a lie, this is.

00:11:20 JeremyWhat did your gut feel? I might be different than most. I was met with resoundingsupport. From people that I knew and had worked with and knew very well fromthat district, talking about how John was innocent, this was all BS. I needed to shutit down. I came at it from a point of view that you investigate these cases that cometo you until you either make the case or determine that there’s not enoughevidence to go forward with the case.

00:11:58 JeremyLike my goal is not to disprove it, you know what I mean. Even if it soundsoutlandish, your goal as a good detective, a good investigator, is to investigate thecase and find out if there’s anything there. I had my own personal experiences that Iwould never discard an allegation without looking into it. So I came into it from adifferent sense. Did I enjoy getting a free pizza when I worked midnight from him?Yeah. Was he my friend? No. Do I owe anything to him? No, but there’s a reason whythese abusers make these relationships. And he made that relationship that hemade with all those people for the exact reason. And and I was met with thatsupport, either lucky for me or unlucky for him. I don’t know. It came across mydesk, and I think it’s important to know survivors of child sexual abuse.

00:12:57 JeremyOften have very tumultuous childhoods, adolescence, and some go to prison. Somecommit crimes. Some act out because they don’t have the capacity to deal withtrauma. And I’m not a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a mental health professional,but I can tell you, people react differently to trauma, and sometimes, oftentimes, it’snot pretty. So the person who came forward was a well-known. Person, with theexact opposite reputation of John Hamilton, and that I hope that some of thesupport these cops were calling me about him was related to oh this guy’s acriminal. You can’t believe this guy. This guy breaks the law. This guy makes uswork. This guy will do whatever. They had already determined this accuser whocame forward who.

00:13:56 JeremyHonestly, God, I feel like he’s one of the bravest people I know because he knew hisbackground, he knew what it was going to be met with, and I’ll tell you about thereport. He happened to be in the neighborhood, a Fort Hunt community in FairfaxCounty, which is an affluent community, full of suburb suburbs and nice homes andcommuters into DC, and fairly affluent. Neighborhoods, by all accounts, this kid

went home visiting his mom, who still lived in that area. He happens to be at aSeven Eleven, just a chance encounter. He happens to be there. He sees a car driveby. John Hamilton’s driving the car, and he’s thinking, “Oh, what a piece of shit!” I heknows what he went through with this guy, and he says as he’s turning to go back inthe store.

00:14:55 JeremySomething catches his eye in the car, and he goes, “There’s a kid in the car with.”

00:14:59 Speaker 5Him,”

00:15:02 JeremyAnd this kid coming forward. I don’t want to use his name because he doesn’t knowI’m talking about this. And while he was brave then, I don’t want to put him on blast.But if you’re listening, you know who you are. And he thought, ” Man, this happenedto me from like 10 to 12. I’m in my mid 20s.” And this guy’s still doing it. He goes, “Iknew him. I knew his family. I knew he didn’t have kids.” And the fact that he’s alonewith a child, he goes, “That was it.” I went straight to the station and reported it. Hegoes, “I know they didn’t believe me, because I called him on the phone.” He’s like,he asked me, “He goes, ‘Do you believe me?’” I’m like, “My job’s not to believe you.My job’s to investigate this.” Um, but he said that John had been molesting himwhile he was his coach.

00:15:53 JeremyIn little league, this kid came from a broken home, single parent raising him, andbaseball was something he loved. It was tough for him to get places to play, rec, ortravel. John, his coach, was more than happy to offer up rides.

00:16:14 Sonny Von ClevelandMade it all happen for him.

00:16:16 JeremyHe works. He would disguise it as “I’m giving everyone a ride.” Sometimes therewould be more kids in there. He was very good at camouflage, camouflaging hisactions, and he quickly negotiated alone time with this person, and within a weekwas making his first physical advances and committing crimes against him. So I toldthe victim, come in, come into my office. We’re gonna sit down and we’re gonna talkface to face. And I did what cops call phone sting.

00:16:50 JeremyIt’s a controlled phone call. It’s recorded. In Virginia, we’re lucky enough—one partyconsent, so I can record any phone call as long as one party is aware of therecording. These are great tools in law enforcement. They’re beautiful. They’retypically short. They typically result in a confrontation. The suspect usuallyterminates the phone call. This phone call, I monitor it, and I sit there and try to

guide the. The The victim, the survivor, through this phone call, because sometimesit can be a shock to them to have contact with the person they’re accusing of thesecrimes. This kid had a lot of spunk. I said, “Kid, he was a grown up. He had a lot ofspunk.” We get to the point within a few minutes, and it’s like, “Oh, hey, how youdoing?” You know, and and John’s interacting. What he been up to?

00:17:51 JeremyAnd the person who came forward goes, I want to talk to you. This stuff’s beenweighing on me, and the stuffyou did to me. And he confronts him

00:18:03 Sonny Von ClevelandAnd that’s usually where the phone hangs up.

00:18:05 JeremyYou get a reaction, a denial. That phone call lasted about sixty minutes. We endedup having to turn the phone call in. I gave this person the go ahead. End thishowever you want to end this. Not one denial. Wow, not one. What he said is, I don’tremember that. Hey, let’s set up a time to meet in person. That’s what he said. Hewanted nothing more than to reengage. What his motives were, I don’t know. Isuspect a lot of that would have been able to apply manipulations and differentthings.

00:18:45 JeremyPeter’s probably going to share a lot with some of the ways in which John kepthimself involved in people’s families, but I hung up the phone call. I went and toldmy boss. I’m like, ‘Hey, this guy did it. This guy is so guilty.’ Wow.

00:19:05 Jim ColeYeah,

00:19:05 JeremyI’ve never had to end a phone call before. Usually, they make that decision. I knowthe reporting person. Our victim goes, “What do you think?” And I’m like, “I believeyou.” I know it’s not my job to believe you, but he goes, “He was so relieved to havethat, to not be judged by past actions.” You know that he took as he tried to dealwith all this. And I’ll tell you, I think that helped him so much.

00:19:44 JeremyTurned his life around just from that simple act, like doing that gave himconfidence. And before we even got to court, this guy had a job. He was running ahotel in a major city. He was getting married. It was seriously cathartic and lifechanging for him. And that started it. And at that point in time, it was.

00:20:15 JeremyWho else do I need to talk to? Because kids always know. You want to know who’smolesting your kids? You talk to the kids. They’re gonna know. Even if you, as a

parent or an adult, dismiss someone’s actions, kids are gonna know. So I startedtalking to kids. They would talk to me. I was met with a lot of reluctance becausethese were teenage children. They were young adults. They were older adults. JohnHamilton coached so many kids over the course of twenty years in Little Leaguethat I had to interview and set up interviews of our own police officers anddetectives who he had coached to see if he had offended against them. When theywere kids. Because just because you didn’t come forward doesn’t mean it didn’thappen. You weren’t a victim of child sexual abuse.

00:21:13 PeterWhat was the total number again?

00:21:15 JeremyWhen it was all over, and a lot of this came by John’s own mouth, and we can getinto how the case progressed, but he eventually came to the table after we got himto plead guilty. I thought I was such a genius, having worked through thisagreement to plead guilty. I had a lot of help on the case, but John came to thetable. And he, over the course of three days, multiple hours each day, he outlinedfrom his point of view, his perspective, the people he had abused. When it was allover, he admitted to abusing thirty people from nineteen eighty-six to two thousandand nine. And if you are doing the math, you might think, “Oh, one a year,” butthat’s not how abuse works. Abuse is daily, sometimes multiple times a day.

00:22:12 JeremySometimes more than one victim going on. These are people, but that doesn’tmean he only abused people thirty times. And John, initially, was an offender ofopportunity. Most, in my experience, child abusers will target a certain sex or agerange. We ended up identifying twenty eight boys and two girls, so it wassubstantial, and that’s what he admitted to. I believe, I firmly believe, he minimized.But that come to Jesus, the Commonwealth called it, where he comes and outlineshis crimes was supposed to be fact checked with a polygraph to make sure hewasn’t holding back.

00:23:11 JeremyPart of the agreement with his high-powered defense team was that if he did this,he would be allowed to remain on bond pending his plea, and that was all set up.

00:23:24 Sonny Von ClevelandIs this before or after you met

00:23:27 JeremyPeter? That’s after. So that’s after. This is towards the end.

00:23:31 Sonny Von ClevelandLet’s let’s go back.

00:23:33 JeremySure. It’s convoluted.

00:23:36 Sonny Von ClevelandNo doubt. Because I’m just one of, Kind of keep it chronological here because Iknow there is a lot of variables to this. So once you got the report and you talk tothis kid and now you know in your heart this dude’s guilty. I know he is. Now itbecomes your job as an investigator to prove that. Like. Yep. And then how did youget from that moment? To Peter.

00:24:00 JeremyAgain, that’s another long story. I don’t want this to be completely about like what Ido, but. This really sets the scene. So, I start interviewing people who played forJohn. I find out from the first person that I need to talk to another person that theythey knew played travel and they knew was a great ball player. I call that person.They’re like, “Oh, I assume you want to talk about when John got fired fromcoaching at the private school.” I’m like, “Uh, what?”

00:24:36 Speaker 5Oh, forgot about that.

00:24:38 JeremyAnd I was like, ” Tell me more, cause I don’t know what you’re talking about.” Andthey’re like, ” Yeah, John got fired because there were a couple of times when hemasturbated in front of us at travel games in the hotel rooms. John would stay inour rooms, and we’d wake up, and he’s like, ‘You know, we’d make jokes about it, butlike. ’ ” He would act like he’s asleep, and he would masturbate in front of us. Andhe’s like, ” Word got out, you know, kids were talking.” I’m like, ” Well, I did this getreported?” They’re like, ” Well, yeah, we talked to the school about it.” Well, theschool let him go. Wow, Catholic school.

00:25:24 Jim ColeWow, it’s that’s so the norm. These institutions are more worried about their ownreputation than they are, and so for them, it’s easier if they just make it go away.

00:25:34 Sonny Von ClevelandYeah. So you’re telling me John would pretend to be sleeping, and like he’smasturbating in his sleep.

00:25:40 JeremyYes. He’s Uber grooming. He’s getting kids used to him being naked, getting themused to him being aroused, being alone with them, and seeing who reacts poorlyand seeing who he can potentially target.

00:26:00 PeterAnd. That was my first memory of John. Was at his first house, wherever that was,

standing in a bathroom mirror with the most demonic look on his face. As I’mhelping him pack up this apartment, and he’s just sitting there masturbating,staring at me. And I was probably at that time nine years old, and that’s my firstexperience of that as well.

00:26:26 JeremyWow. And that was his go-to move still in 2009 when all this ended. It was still, hewas still active. This wasn’t someone reported something from ten, fifteen yearsago. Now this guy was active. These are leopards who don’t change.

00:26:42 Jim ColeNo

00:26:44 JeremyNo. So I find out about that, and then when I get offthe, as I’m getting offthephone with that person, you know they tell me, oh, there’s more. You know, he didstufftowards me. At his house in Fairfax, which, you know, as a as a detectiveworking in the county police agency, I want to deal with those crimes in myjurisdiction because I have the power to deal with them. I’ll try to deal with thosethings out of jurisdiction, but oftentimes that’s going to involve federal or otherjurisdictions. And again, it’s a bunch of kids in a hotel room that I’m probably goingto get a lot of pushback from some families and everything. So I’m focusing onthose those things. They outline.

00:27:30 JeremyTheir abuse, and that John would treat the kids from the team to bowling, KingsDominion, which is an amusement park in Virginia and a couple other places, alarge place. At his own expense, he would take kids to the park. He would take thembowling. He’d take them out to dinner, and then he’d take them all home. And hewould try to get kids back to his house alone with him. He would make bets withthe kids. If I win this, you get an extra trip to King’s Dominion, or you get dinner, oryou get this, or you get tickets to this game, or I’ll take you here. If you lose, you gotto do something at my house. I got a fence that needs painting. I want my housepainted. Sure.

00:28:14 Sonny Von ClevelandSo when they inevitably do chores or stuff

00:28:17 PeterI wonder if that’s how I ended up. I was like, how did I end up at nine years oldpacking up this dude’s house? I must have lost a bet. That would be the onlyplausible explanation.

00:28:32 JeremyHe got that person at his house, and he began soft initiations. It would be he wouldbe in his boxers, and all of a sudden my penis is out, and I don’t know it. If anyone’s

ever worn boxers, you know when your penis is out, right? And who wears boxersaround a child, right? And that progressed after a few occasions of that. To the ohno you caught me masturbating oh whoops I didn’t know you were in here well youbrought him over there right like one hundred percent but grooming one on onethis an adult yeah this an adult man who’s sophisticated in their manipulation yeahworking a kid over mentally right so we go through that a little bit more into thatabuse and he’s like oh by the way.

00:29:28 JeremyWhen John left this coaching gig, I heard he went to a high school, and coachedthere. I was like, “What? Are you kidding?” And they’re like, “Yeah, but somethinghappened there too.” So I call the high school. I talk to the people at the highschool, ask if John’s a coach there. They’re like, “Not anymore.” I’m like, “Whathappened?” Ah, there was something, something happened out of town, so we lethim go. Like, did you report it? Well, no, I mean it was out of town, and weren’treally clear, and you know the kids like it was hard to talk to, so I finally get somepeople from that trip and corroborate that he did similar things with the highschool team, and kids were making jokes about John and masturbating, so they lethim go, and they didn’t report it because didn’t happen here, we don’t know, wecan’t prove it, we let him go. Now fast forward.

00:30:26 JeremyWhen I found out that John’s company was still doing the embroidery for the sportsteams in the county, he had convinced one of the other high schools to give theman office. His company had an office, and he would spend like half days at this highschool just to make things easier if people needed things like the school store. So Inever found anything from that, but this guy was never not working. It’s like theABC always be closing. This guy was always trying to offend, but I got past that, andI realize I need some help. My wife and Jim’s wife both know each other fromfederal law enforcement.

00:31:22 JeremyThey both have history with the behavioral analysis unit, FBI, the profilers. My wifeultimately became a profiler with the unit, and Jim’s wife ultimately became aspecial agent and worked. Both of our wives are retired now. I really leveraged myrelationship with coworkers, mentors, and associates of both of our wives, and Ipretty much plugged myself into BAU. I went and did a case consultation with theCrimes Against Children Unit at Quantico, and I sat down with someone who wouldreally become my mentor as well, and some legends in profiling. This guy, I’m notgoing to say his name, but he’s pretty famous. He’s active in Hollywood,screenwriter, producer.

00:32:20 JeremyInvestigative reporter, I guess you would say. He’s also retired, and other peoplewho are well known in the community sat down, and I went through the case. I was

thinking they’re gonna be like, not really interested. They probably see way worsethan this. But when I laid this out to them, they jumped in wholeheartedly, andthey’re like, this guy’s bad. This guy’s really, really bad.

00:32:48 JeremyAlmost prolific, and the volume and his skill set.

00:32:53 Jim ColeHe is the definition of a predator.

00:32:55 JeremyHe’s so. I felt so happy to have that support, and they were so invested that theseguys don’t typically leave the office unless they’re called on a deployment. If theyget sent to those stranger cases or the reported missing kids, serial killing, like theydon’t leave the office for nothing. They’re like, hey, I’d really like to be involved inthis contact with this guy. I am like, great. They’re like, you got to get him in. You gotto talk to him. Okay. And for some reason, John agreed to come talk to me. Iwouldn’t tell him what it was about. He came to the office.

00:33:39 JeremyAs they frequently do, for whatever reason the FBI profiler couldn’t come that day. Iget John in there and I ask him about all kinds of stuff. I ask him about the personwho came forward, and man, he starts railing on this kid, starts telling me how badthis kid is. All the things he’s convincing me, he’s trying to convince me that this is allwrong and that he’s a good guy. We talk about his car, and he slips up at one timeand actually mentions that he remembers being alone in his car with this personfrom like 15 years ago. And I think he catches himself because he is very smart. Heis no dummy. He is highly intelligent. I think he realizes he doesn’t. I corroborated alittle bit.

00:34:28 Sonny Von ClevelandHe doesn’t, in that moment, know that you had knowledge of the phone call, doeshe?

00:34:33 JeremyHe does not know.

00:34:35 Sonny Von ClevelandYeah. So in his mind,

00:34:37 JeremyIt was still just a call between him and the prior victim. One person — that’s all hewas thinking about, and that’s what he was focused on. And he starts getting wishywashy, and I’m like, ” Hey, brother, I hear what you’re saying, but I got I got ahandful of people telling me the same stuff. We need to get to the bottom of this.”He shuts it down. He shuts it down. He’s like, ” Well, then we’re done talking.” I offer

him a polygraph because you know. Polygraph’s not admissible, but it’s a great tool.Yeah, because we’re able to elicit things. An interview that, yep these pro thesepolygraphers are typically very good interviewers. So sometimes they get stuffthathe might not tell me because he’s not looking at them as the person who’s trying toprove these crimes. Right. Right. So he’s like, I’ll think about it, and he he ends theinterview.

00:35:34 JeremyBut he ends it voluntarily, so I still have a chance to reengage with him. So I talk tothe profiler friend, and I’m like, “Yeah, he walked out. He corroborated one piece,like he remembered 15 years ago being alone in the car with this kid, andsomething happened.” I’m like, “I, I would not remember that.” He goes, “Yeah,nobody would remember unless they committed a crime and probably one of eithergreat gratification or trauma. Like, you know, you don’t remember.” Those things,unless there’s there’s something there, she’s like, I want to come to his house withyou. He goes, Let’s cold call him at home. Let’s come to his safe place. Let’s knock onhis door, and let’s disarm his protection and his control. Like that sounds great.Hope it works. We go knock on the door of John’s house, and he’s living in the westend of our county, completely away from the neighborhood.

00:36:31 JeremyWhere he got his start, he he moved all the way across there. Which I I always waslike, that’s weird. Why would you leave this beautiful neighborhood and come out tothe land of the townhouse where he’s at now? Knock on the door, he won’t come tothe door. We know he’s there. We see his car parked behind his house. So we’re like,we’re standing in between his townhouse and the other, and we’re trying to gameplan. What do we do now? We can’t make him come to the door. Here, the dooropen up. John pops out. The bottom exit of his townhouse, where his car is parked,we walk up to him. I’m like, “Hey, John.” He knows who I am because we’ve alreadytalked. I’m like, “This is my buddy. He’s from the FBI. He’s an FBI profiler,” and Iintroduce him. And John, I don’t know how else to say it, his knees buckled, and hereached and supported himself on the car to keep. He almost fell down. Wow.

00:37:28 JeremyIt was such a smash, and I was like, “Oh my god, these profilers know their stuff.” Iwas like, “This is a reaction.”

00:37:36 Sonny Von Cleveland” This dude is guilty. I was like, ” Oh.

00:37:39 Jim ColeMy god!” In his mind

00:37:41 Sonny Von ClevelandThe gig is up.

00:37:41 JeremyOh yeah,

00:37:42 Jim ColeDude, he sees it all come crashing down.

00:37:44 JeremyYeah, yeah, and this, like, I felt like, you know, like it was like the body blow. Youknow, it was the first time someone’s hit him, and he couldn’t, he didn’t have ananswer, and so his body like shut down on him. Tell him we want to talk. Let’s goinside. No, we’re not going inside. Why can’t we go inside? We need to go inside.Yeah, you want to talk with us? You know what we’re here to talk about, right? Yourneighbors are like five feet away. It’s a townhouse community. Like you don’t wantthem hearing your dirt. Let’s go inside. No, no, we can’t go inside. And he’s justashen. He looks like he’s about to die. Like the blood drained from his face. I’m like,okay.

00:38:26 JeremyAll right, whatever. I’m not sure what that’s about, but we don’t want him to shutdown because if he shuts down, we lose our chance. So, like, well, let’s let’s just talkout here. We finally get him to get in the car with us, and I let my buddy go with thiswhole thing because I’m kind of at the point where I need to try a new a new tackwith him. And this guy’s good. He’s spitting at him. He’s just working him over. Youknow, he’s like pressing levers and pulling them, and it’s just it’s a Thing of beauty towatch, and at one point, like six kids go rolling by. They’re like six years old, sevenyears old, bikes and scooters. And he’s like, “See, John, like I’m worried about you.Like, see those kids. Like, I don’t want you to have to like be careful about yourselfwhen all these kids are like rolling by, and the temptation.” John, not even thinking. Idon’t know if he was capable of thought at that point. He’s like.

00:39:25 JeremyI’m not paying attention to them. It wasn’t like I’m not into kids. It was I’m notpaying attention to them. And I looked at my friend. He looked back at me in theseat. And John was like, “Yeah, whoops.” He’s like, “I gotta go. I’m leaving. I got anappointment. I gotta get out of here.” And he left. And I swear, this is just such agood story. I don’t wanna skip this part because it kind of breaks at this point.

00:39:56 JeremyHe’s left. We’re sitting there staring at each other, going, ‘We’ve got moreconfirmation that this guy’s very bad, and he doesn’t want us in this house.’ What’sin what do we have? How do we advance this case? The person who came forward, Ilove them. I would have them to my house, but I don’t want to have them carryingthis case around on their back like a cross. Because I know what they’re going to getput through.

00:40:28 Sonny Von ClevelandAnd I’ve been through that

00:40:29 JeremyRight? I understand. I know you know. I understand that. Good call on you. It’s notfair to them, and the case doesn’t go anywhere if we don’t build it better, right? Evenif it takes longer. So we come up with the idea. Let’s find out what his neighborsknow about him, because these people don’t really know him. Right. Everyone inthe Fort Hunt neighborhood knows him. So we start knocking on doors, and it’s like,oh yeah. There’s a lot of people who come over there. They’re younger, loud parties.Don’t really like that. We’re hitting one house right across the street from him, andthe lady comes to the door. She’s like, “Oh, I don’t know him, know him, but his sonand my son go to high school together.” I said, “Excuse me, his son?” I’m like, “Yeah,he’s got a 16 year old son, and that he’s friends. He’s friends with my son.”

00:41:24 JeremyAnd they go to the local high school. They’re on that end of the county.

00:41:28 Sonny Von ClevelandBecause I guess we didn’t ask here. Does he, this man, have no kids? He’s notmarried. Just a single man.

00:41:34 JeremyHe’s not married. He’s never even had a girlfriend that I could well we ever kind ofunderstand determined that existed, right? And I’m like, he doesn’t have a son.She’s like, yeah, he does. I’m like, which house? She points right to the house whereJohn lives. She goes, I’m telling you. My son’s not here. I’d have him tell you the kid’sname. She told me what she thought it was, and it was an abbreviation of this kid’sname. And I’m not going to name him. We go. We knock on the door, and the dooropens, and there is a 16 year old man. Child opens the door.

00:42:14 Sonny Von ClevelandAnd John Hamilton

00:42:15 JeremyJohn’s house, the house he just left

00:42:17 Jim ColeHe left; he almost collapsed. Which is why he didn’t want to go.

00:42:21 JeremyYes, right, because he knew we were going to be like, what the, yeah, all right. And Iwas like, ” Are you John Hamilton’s son?” Because that’s what we were told. He goes,” No, I’m,” and he identifies himself. I’m from. The Netherlands. I’m an exchangestudent, and I was like, ” You have got to be!” Wow. I know we’re not supposed tocuss, but it’s going to be really hard. This story is a lot. Wow. And I look at my buddy,

and he looks at me, and he’s like, ” You want to call CPS?” I’m like, ” Yeah, hold on.”So I go call CPS. They respond out child protective service, child protective servicesfor this for the state of Virginia,

00:43:09 Jim ColeChild welfare agency.

00:43:10 JeremyAnd we have a quick little convo in the house, and we find out that the kid’s beenthere for about six months or more. And lo and behold, John’s already started upthere. So we remove the kid from the home. John’s nowhere to be found, notanswering phone calls to come back. We take the kid to the station. We do aforensic interview to basically a non. An interview where you interview childrenabout sexual abuse or anything, and it’s in a non-leading fashion, and it’s like arecognized standard by which kids can be interviewed so that the interviewer is notleading them to the answers. It’s very different than an adult.

00:43:56 Jim ColeYeah, and we will have a future episode with a child – friendly interviewer. Yeah,

00:44:01 JeremySo they’re good; they’re really good. I’m trained to do it. I’m more comfortableletting a professional who, in that capacity. Who doesn’t have to investigate thecase? Do it so that I can observe it, you know, and learn. But ultimately, we end upcalling the Commonwealth Attorney, which is the prosecutor in the state of Virginiafor the county I’m in, and they’re like, “Let’s get some charges.” So I charge him forthe first person who came forward, like a placeholder felony, and charge him withsome felonies for this other person. And at that point in time, John finally comesback home.

00:44:39 JeremyAnother day or so after saying I’m going to come turn myself in, he doesn’t. Wesend units out and we lock him up at his home, bring him in, process him. Herefuses to make any statements, which is his right. Basically, gets an attorney. Wecome up with a strategy to get additional information. So the FBI helps craft a pressrelease, which media strategies are some of the best things. That some of ourfederal partners can do, especially people who understand the component of thecrime, and we put a lot of factual information about who John is, that he’s beenarrested for these crimes, when they occurred. Basically, so we bookend like over adecade of activity with these two charges, and we ask people with information tocome forward. So that happens. The press release goes out. My phone startsblowing up.

00:45:39 JeremyAnd we’re just getting more and more information, and people are saying he’s close

with this kid Peter, who’s a stud athlete and plays active player on a college team.You got to talk to him. He will know more. His family will know more about JohnHamilton than anyone else. So I heard the name, and at this point, it’s like how doyou break into that? I don’t want to cold call this person who’s states away. I foundout through the investigation that Peter’s family was so close with John that eitherthey acquired representation or at least began a recommendation of somerepresentation for John. So legal counsel

00:46:35 PeterWow, yeah, first time I’ve heard that.

00:46:36 JeremySo. Wow. We got here for it. Peter’s going to unpack. We have much more to getinto. Peter’s going to unpack this for you, and really, maybe that’s the best point forPeter to start.

00:46:53 Sonny Von ClevelandI was going to say this is a great spot for Peter to jump in because we’ve built upwho we’re dealing with now.

00:46:59 PeterWhat’s crazy about that time when I called Jeremy? It’s my freshman year of collegeat the University of Georgia, playing SEC baseball with dreams of.

00:47:08 Jim ColeDivision One baseball

00:47:09 PeterTop of Division One baseball. We were the number one team in the country formost of that year before tanking at the end of the year. But I’m literally gettingready to go play a regional at Florida State. I’m like the week of preparing for thisregional, and that’s when my mom called me in that dorm room. Just rocked myworld. But I met John when I was around nine years old. He was the all-star coachfor my little league baseball team. And I think the confusing thing about abuse is itdoesn’t start with this horror story. It starts with being chosen. And he chose me.Where was that at? Fort Hunt, little league. So back in the Virginia, Alexandria,Virginia. And so.

00:47:57 PeterHe chose me. He saw some of the potential that I had in baseball, and I don’t knowall the reasons, but he started giving me hitting lessons for free. My mom alwaystried to pay him, and he was like, “No.” And then he started giving me equipment,Wicks sporting goods. They got discount equipment, so new bats, new gloves, newworkout equipment.

00:48:18 Jim ColeShowering you with gifts.

00:48:19 PeterJust showering me with gifts. I remember the first time that we hung out outside ofthe baseball field. He invited my mom and I to go to an Orioles baseball game downthe third baseline. It’s crazy. People with complex PTSD they say like dissociate, andI have these movies that play in my head of all these memories, and I can sit thereas a third person and watch us sitting in those seats. Oh yeah.

00:48:45 Sonny Von ClevelandI get the same thing where you can see you recall certain things, and they’re likemovies watching somebody else’s life.

00:48:51 PeterYep. And he—I don’t know how long of that grooming process before the first abusehappened, but I remember the first time it happened. It was Carl Sandburg MiddleSchool. He cut the lawns at Carl Sandburg Middle School. That’s also where I did alot of my baseball stuff. And I was riding on a tractor. He said, “I want to teach youhow to ride the big tractor,” and he said, “Come sit on my lap.” And I was sitting onhis lap. I was wearing blue mesh shorts that he had given me. I can picture thoseshorts. And his hand just slowly slid over to my groin, and I pushed it away, andthen it came back, and I pushed it away, and then I didn’t know what else to do, andthen he started touching me over my shorts, and from there it just became a dailyoccurrence. He abused me from age nine until almost my 14th birthday, most days,multiple times a day, sometimes.

00:49:50 PeterWow, you do the math. That’s hundreds and hundreds.

00:49:56 Sonny Von ClevelandBecomes almost like part of your daily life.

00:50:00 PeterAnd you talk about how grooming isn’t just the kid. He groomed my family. Hegroomed my mom. He exploited some struggles that my parents were goingthrough in their marriage. My dad, who I want to qualify this because my dad is oneof my best friends now. He is an amazing human being. He’s totally changed his lifeat age seventy-three by going back to therapy, but at the time it was a tough time.With work, with their marriage, there was so much going on, and John saw that andhe exploited it and he started grooming my mom as well. They became best friends,and we can get into that a little bit. But he took me to two World Series. He took meto spring training in Arizona and Florida.

00:50:46 PeterWe did it in the same trip. We went to Florida and then Arizona, and then we went

back out to Arizona another time. He gave me access to professional level hittingcoaches. You know, I’m still in touch with one of them. I talked to him for like twohours the other day, and I was like, “I don’t think you know this,” but every time Icame to hit with you, I had been abused on the way there every single time. And hewas like, because he was really close with John, and he had no, he’s like, “It has.”Tore me up knowing how close I was to him, not knowing any of this was going on.

00:51:18 Sonny Von ClevelandWhat was the dynamic between your father and John? Like you got to imagine ifyou have a husband. We’re all husbands here, and my wife has a new best friend.That’s a guy that’s taking my kid across the country to World Series. Probably goingto have a question or hey, who is this guy? Do you know what the dynamic wasthere?

00:51:40 PeterIt was tenuous. The issues in their marriage were that he had stuffwith work andsome other things going on, and then when they became best friends and hestarted integrating into our lives, it caused even more turmoil. Eventually, leadingmy dad to move cross country to Seattle the summer before my senior year. Myparents are still married and together to this day, but before my most importantyear of high school.

00:52:13 PeterHe left and it got that bad.

00:52:19 Sonny Von ClevelandIs this guy coming over for dinner with family?

00:52:21 PeterThis is a guy who has a seat at our dinner table. He came to Christmas. He was inour family until the day he was arrested. He came and watched me play baseball atGeorgia freshman year, and all the way up until his arrest. I don’t know when his lastvisit was that spring.

00:52:41 JeremyBut I’ll say that. One to go back to something you said about how he contributed toyour parents’ problems. As the detective, I engaged not only with you but with yourfolks, and primarily with your mother. And in talking to them, I am going to say Idon’t know so much that he took advantage of what they were going through, but Ithink he was the architect and he master manipulated.

00:53:12 JeremyA wedge

00:53:14 Sonny Von ClevelandBecause that was his access point.

00:53:17 JeremyDisgusting way to say it, but I feel like it was his masterpiece, because this is thefirst and only one that I’ve seen him involved with, where he came into a fullyfunctioning family. Whereas before it was single father, single mother, contentiousrelationship, living apart. He came into something and he just pulled the levers.

00:53:47 Sonny Von ClevelandHe facilitated those issues so that the dissension existed because that gave himmore access.

00:53:53 JeremyTotally, and so, wow. Obviously, this is your mother, your father, and it’s yourrelationship and your story. But I just want you to know that’s my belief as aprofessional investigator, looking from the outside in, without that emotional thingand I don’t want you to think like your folks. His team, I heard secondhand throughthe Commonwealth attorney that the legal team he was recommended wassuggested by someone in your family, because they were the best of friends. Johnand Peter’s mom were the best of friends. He was writing letters to my mom afterhe got arrested. He wrote letters from jail to my mom. I think until Peter said, “Yeah,mom, it’s true. This happened to me.”

00:54:41 JeremyAs soon as I got offthe phone with Peter, I got a phone call from his mom, and shewas devastated. She realized what happened, and that’s when she stopped hersupport of him. It was like he was dead to her.

00:55:03 Sonny Von ClevelandWhat was the relationship like when the abuse stopped at thirteen? Because he’sstill a part of your family at this point. What did that look like as fourteen, fifteen,sixteen, seventeen-year-old Peter, with this man? It’s because your dad’s now inSeattle. What’s that looking like?

00:55:22 PeterI read a quote the other day that said something along the lines of the harm ofabuse isn’t what was actually done to you; it’s the confusion that it leaves behindand all the turmoil that it leaves behind. And that kind of speaks to this term traumabonding. I think people often misuse that. They think it’s like bonding over yourtrauma.

00:55:47 Sonny Von ClevelandI use it. So I had a therapist that taught me about that because I thought, well, ifyou’ve been abused and I’ve been abused, we’re trauma bonding. She was like, youhave to stop saying that. That’s not it.

00:55:58 PeterNo. Trauma bonding is when you’re abused and then you’re showered with gifts,

with trips, with all of these things. It gives you a dopamine hit. It’s when you bondto your abuser, and so he was abusing me, giving me all these gifts, abusing me,giving me all these gifts. And so the confusion during those years, especially after itstopped, was exponential because now he’s not abusing me; he’s just giving megifts to keep me quiet, essentially. He was still very much integrated into our family.He came to every single one of my high school baseball games.

00:56:34 PeterHe was driving me down to hitting lessons. He was coming out to Georgia andwatching me play baseball my freshman year, both practices and games.

00:56:43 Sonny Von ClevelandA specific moment, when you finalized this isn’t happening anymore. We’re donewith this.

00:56:50 PeterSo we were driving ninety five south to that hitting coach that I mentioned, and Idon’t know what John did to piss me off, but he did something, and I screamed athim. I remember this. This is another one of those movies that plays in my head,and I was like, “If you don’t shut the fuck up, I will fucking.” And sorry for thecussing. This is word for word though. I will fucking tell every single person whatyou have done to me. And he was like, “I don’t know what you are talking about.” Iwas like, “You fucking know what I am talking about. Shut the fuck up.” And he shutthe fuck up. And you were thirteen. I’m pretty sure that was around when it ended.

00:57:28 PeterI have very fuzzy memories during that time, as you can imagine. Of course, it’s verynatural. But yeah, that it stopped right before my fourteenth birthday, and it had tobe around then. I think at that moment, he also realized this dude’s gonna saysomething if I don’t.

00:57:46 Sonny Von ClevelandNow I have to go above and beyond to keep him quiet.

00:57:48 PeterAnd so I mean, he was there at holidays. He was there at dinner. He was there atevery game. He was best friends with my mom. They formed a really closerelationship. And that’s the confusion, and that’s what makes it really hard to come.

00:58:05 Sonny Von ClevelandAnd he even showed up when you were in college. In college, he would come to thegames. Were there moments that you guys were alone? And college going forward,like as you became an adult and you’re eighteen, nineteen, how were thoseinteractions?

00:58:18 PeterWas it? I remember. So I had only told one person about the abuse prior to tellingmy mom when she called, and then Jeremy was the third person. It was my highschool girlfriend who I am still in touch with. I told her I am writing a book, and shewas like, “I want a copy.” I told her over AIM chat, little squeaky door opens, and Iswore her to secrecy. Sure, but it was during my senior year of high school that I didthat, and that was when I was starting to feel this.

00:58:52 PeterComing out

00:58:52 Sonny Von ClevelandThat just that just it it just sparks a thought in me of how many kids are walkingaround carrying the weight of their friends’ abuse.

00:59:00 Jim ColeA lot. Oh yeah, for sure,

00:59:01 Sonny Von ClevelandA lot. And like, God, to think of that, right? Like

00:59:06 PeterAnd I didn’t even know what I handed her. I had no idea the weight of what I did.

00:59:11 Sonny Von ClevelandThe victim is not at fault for that. The victim has to say that, but inadvertently, thetrauma that another child now carries and sworn to secrecy. God, that’s traumaticfor you as well and for her.

00:59:26 PeterMan. But I remember that freshman year of college. Again, one of these moviesthat plays in my head of these stories. It was after a game, family was allowed intothe gate to greet us as we came out of the locker room, and he was standing therewith my mom. I think it was just them two, and he came to give me a hug, and I likephysically like recoiled being around him. I like. At that point, was having a reallyhard time just being around him, especially when he was with my mom, becausethat relationship, and to this day as an adult, it has caused a lot of turmoil in ourfamily life. I told my dad this story for the first time in November. Wow. So this, andthey haven’t even heard all of this story. I want to just take.

01:00:14 Sonny Von ClevelandThis minute to just commend you for that bravery, bro. I appreciate that. It’s gonnamake me cry. And I’m honored, and this is why I’m in this work for you to share thatin this space. It means something to me. I just need you to know. I appreciate that.What was the question? It’s profound because so many men don’t.

01:00:48 Sonny Von ClevelandIt needs to be known that it’s right? And so we’re talking about the moment yourealize that your mom, that relationship was more than just friendship.

01:00:58 PeterI mean he was a master manipulator. He was top of his class when it came tomanipulation.

01:01:02 Sonny Von ClevelandSo then that would kind of lead us up to the moment where you get a call from yourmom.

01:01:07 PeterAnd all it took was her asking me. There was no pushback. She said, “Did thishappen to you?” Without hesitation, I said, “Yeah.” That’s all I was waiting for. I wasjust waiting for one person to ask me. But I wasn’t given the tools as a kid. How doyou talk about?

01:01:21 Sonny Von ClevelandOne hundred percent. It was. But the moment the opportunity came to open upabout it, I was like, “Yes, floodgates open.” One hundred percent. Same thing withme. Like, the moment I was given the space to talk about it, there it is. Because wedon’t know how to approach it as a child and as an abuse victim. We don’t know howto approach that conversation. How do you sit your mom down and be like, “Mom, Igot something to talk to you about.” We don’t know that. We don’t know how to dothat. I’m making sure my kids know how to do that. When she called you becauseyou and her had talked.

01:01:54 JeremyAt that time, she saw the press release.

01:01:57 Sonny Von ClevelandAnd then she called you.

01:01:59 PeterAsked you, “Did this happen?” I said yes. And she asked me what I wanted to doabout it. How could she help? I said, just give me Detective Hinson’s number, and I’lltake care of it. That’s all I said. That was the end of the conversation. I had a goodcry, and I called Jeremy. That was the first time we talked on the phone. I think it’salso important for the viewers. I haven’t seen this dude for 16 years since my trial.

01:02:26 Jim ColeThis is the first time. You saw each other for the first time in 16 years at my houselast night.

01:02:32 Sonny Von ClevelandAnd fun fact, we have not let them have the conversation. We have been adamantabout not letting them talk.

01:02:38 PeterAnd I didn’t I didn’t tell you this, but, Sonny knows I started crying, or I think heknows I started crying on the ride over. We both is going to be very emotional forme because this dude caught him like, duh, and has never once failed to respond toa text message, no matter what time. Never failed to respond to a phone call, andhe never knew it was coming. Sometimes it’s this, I’m my life is falling apart. Textmessage, and sometimes it’s this beautiful life update. Look at my beautiful kids.Hey, I went rafting. Yeah.

01:03:10 Sonny Von ClevelandTell us, take us, walk us through this phone call.

01:03:12 PeterI don’t remember it

01:03:14 JeremyBut you do. I it it was intense because even though I knew we had the right guy, Iknew Hamilton was the boogeyman. I knew he was evil. I still worried about gettingthe case successfully through without like an anchor, right? An anchor point and.This kid who came up through little league, high school, active athlete at college,who has the closest relationship with this guy of anyone who knows John, just calledand said, “Yeah, me too. Me too.” For years, and at that point, I was like, “We gothim so bad.”

01:04:09 JeremyBecause he can’t get out from this, like this kid could prop it up on his own becausehe’s a rock. People look up to you. People wanted to be you. Yeah, you know, and Iknow that, like you talk about that, what hearing Peter’s story has that physicalreaction to you. I can tell you the people that this is going to resound with morethan us at the table is the people who haven’t gotten where you are yet, who arestill holding that weight. When they hear a real person, I can identify with this guy,my coach too, yeah, my whatever too. That’s who your story is going to hit.

01:05:02 Sonny Von ClevelandThat’s why I’m here.

01:05:03 Jim ColeYeah, I mean, a hundred percent. The reason that we’re doing this podcast is thatthat is because, and I don’t think people realize the effect, like like the tremendouseffect, that someone like you coming forward and being able to talk about it, ashard as it is, gives other people the courage and the ability and the permission.Permission is an interesting word, right? Because it it isn’t really.

01:05:33 Jim ColeNobody has to give you permission, but I feel like, and again, I’m not a survivor, buttalking to many survivors, and and I have many relationships like you and like thetwo of you have with survivors from my cases. I and you tell me if I’m wrong, thetwo of you. But you’re almost seeking the permission,

01:05:57 Sonny Von ClevelandAnd that’s when I. So when I use the word permission, yeah, but we need it. Right,we don’t have to have it, but we need it. He couldn’t talk about it until someoneasked him. I couldn’t talk about it until someone asked. One question. Onequestion. Is that question? I label it as permission. You gave me permission tospeak what I’ve been wanting to speak, but I didn’t know how. Yeah, and so when Iuse the word permission, I’m not saying authority. Right. I’m saying you’ve given methe permission to do it.

01:06:23 PeterYou’ve cracked the. You’ve cracked the door open. Yeah. Now I can walk through it.Right. The door had been locked shut. Shame and guilt and embarrassment — ithad been locked shut.

01:06:32 Jim ColeAnd I love the fact that you just use those words because something that that whenI teach about this topic and we teach about grooming and we teach about thesethings, we talk to parents, is what offenders do is they weaponize fear, shame, andguilt. Yes, right. They weaponize those things, and it’s easy to do. Like like like welive in a society where number one, sex is. It kind of shameful and sex. You don’ttalk about it, and so then and then and and even normal sexual relationships arenot something that people talk about publicly, right? And so when you take a asexual like incident or or these occurrences where it’s abusive and exploitative, itmakes it so much harder.

01:07:14 JeremyYeah.

01:07:14 Jim ColeAnd then the other thing is, this is rarefied air because we’ve got two malesurvivors, and and and in my experience. The hardest dynamic to for someone totalk about publicly are are males who have been offended against.

01:07:37 Sonny Von ClevelandYeah. Well, and then if you put yourself in the position of Peter, yeah, who is thisstarting rock star baseball player athlete to talk about that? The the the shame is. Isingratiated into your your mindset because of the abuse, and the offender knewthat. Yeah, the offender knows this kid’s not going to say anything because you aregoing to embarrass yourself in front of the entire baseball world.

01:08:03 PeterI mean, y’all, that when when it all came out, like I said, I was going to Florida State.We were on the bus to game one against the number. We were number two seed,number three seed. We were playing. And my phone is blowing up. Yeah. Also,because people know my relationship with John, and one of those people was thathitting coach that I would drive 95 south to go see. And he was like, “There’s no waythis happened.” And he kept going. And I’m sitting there on the bus on my way tothis game that is very important, sobbing. Nobody in that bus knows what’s goingon. Not a. Actually, I take it back.

01:08:38 PeterMy mom and dad asked for permission to tell our head coach. That’s the onlyperson on the bus who has any idea what’s going on. I’m sitting there sobbingbefore a game, trying to get myself ready. I’m a starting right fielder for that game,and he’s like, ” There’s no way.” And I was like, ” Dude, it fucking happened to me. Itabsolutely is true.” And then again,

01:08:56 Sonny Von ClevelandWe see that external opinion of other people that are saying, ” No, dude, come on.”Well,

01:09:03 Jim ColeThat was self – preservation for him too, right? Because, He and I’m not makingexcuses for him, but but the framing of that is is to protect himself. Right.

01:09:14 Sonny Von ClevelandI was. There’s no way I was friends with someone who did that.

01:09:16 PeterWhat it should then was that did this happen to you?

01:09:18 Sonny Von ClevelandBecause he knew my relationship with John. But also, how many kids has that guyput in touch with John Hamilton? Yes. And so that guilt and shame then comes in.Like I recommended kids to that guy.

01:09:31 PeterWell, he ran he ran hitting camps for John. He ran camps with. Hundreds of kids.

01:09:36 Sonny Von ClevelandSo now you’re starting to get a glimpse into the secondary and tertiary effects oftrauma. It’s never just an offender and a victim. There’s this splash effect, the areaeffect. I want to get back to that phone call. Let’s get into that.

01:09:59 JeremyYou had laid it out. I I think it’s interesting to me to. That this was such a big thing of

this phone call, and that I think you repeatedly asked me, like, I don’t evenremember what I said, you know. And we were on the phone for a while, were we?Yeah, for a while.

01:10:19 PeterZero recollection. I remember the phone. I was on this little gumstick flip phone,

01:10:23 JeremyBut that’s all I remember. We were talking for a while, and I don’t even think yourealized the hand grenade you just dropped into your lap by letting this go. And Iwas so worried about him.

01:10:35 Sonny Von ClevelandWas that like the first time you’d actually went in depth with your abuse withsomeone?

01:10:39 PeterYeah, I mean, I had told that high school girlfriend on AIM, and it was gotta be likethree sentences.

01:10:44 Sonny Von ClevelandYeah, you gotta imagine that this is a very surface conversation. This is an in depthone. So this is the first time you’re like really verbalizing the abuse, and you’rereceiving that.

01:10:53 JeremySo I, I begged you to talk to your coach because I was like. This guy’s gonna be amess, and he’s gonna need some trusted person. And two states away, heading to acouple more states away, on a bus with a whole bunch of other like alpha athletes.God, you know what I mean. I was so worried about his mental health and his yeahemotional state. What it was gonna do to him. So, yeah.

01:11:24 Jim ColeSo, quick question with that. Because again, two thousand nine is a totally differentera than now, right? And I think, I think we’re better aware of some of thosepsychological implications and some of the needs that there, and we have betterresources to deal with that. But I’m, I’m guessing, was there ever like the ability toget him in touch with with someone on the survivor advocacy side,

01:11:50 JeremyLike? So we have a victim advocates group with the police department in Fairfax,and. And a lot of other agencies in in Virginia do now. Some are in theCommonwealth Attorney, the prosecutor’s office, and the agency I’m at now. Wehave our own as well as there’s one.

01:12:07 Jim ColeDid you have that in 2009? We did,

01:12:09 JeremyAnd it was it was robust, but it was in its infancy.

01:12:13 PeterBut actually, what was her name? It was a gal. I just I never recalled that until justnow.

01:12:19 JeremyI believe it was. Funny how mine works like that. I believe it was Serae,

01:12:22 PeterBut yeah, it was.

01:12:23 JeremyYeah. Ultimately, we charged five people. Right, and I know that doesn’t sound like alot considering what he did,

01:12:30 Jim ColeBut when you say charge five people, you know, you mean you charge him, chargehim for crimes five people,

01:12:35 Sonny Von ClevelandOkay?

01:12:36 Jim ColeMultiple crimes. Wow, where did the other people come from?

01:12:38 Sonny Von ClevelandSo he initially

01:12:40 JeremyWas charged with five charges. So we’re for crimes against five people, multiplecharges. We had support from them, but again, that’s all voluntary. They’re trying toget people in line, and oftentimes life gets in the way, as well as our own. I got thistype of a thought process.

01:13:05 Jim ColeI know, and again, this is all because when I started working these crimes, it wastwo thousand three, and victim advocacy wasn’t. I think it was a thing, but it wasn’twell established. There wasn’t a lot at all. And so, over time, moving into as we’reapproaching victims of sexual abuse, later we would always make the approachwith a physically present advocate, so that you’re not just left to your own deviceswith that drop in. And this is a difficult decision because he was in another state,and were federal. We could have arranged for someone. But you were on a bus too.

01:13:51 PeterI got all of my advocate emailed me a few times. I remember, but that was prettymuch the extent of it. I was hyper focused on baseball. That’s honestly what keptme on the rails. Like you talk about some of these other survivors and how theirlives went sideways. One, I had a great sports.

01:14:08 Sonny Von ClevelandLet’s get into that because as you get offthe phone with him, life still happens. Youhave to then continue the bus ride to go to this.

01:14:17 PeterI mean, to this day, not a single one of my teammates knew what was going on. I’msupposed to meet up with one of my college roommates, my sophomore yearcollege roommate. He was in my apartment when the case was going on, when thetrial was going on, when he jumped bail and went across to Europe. We haven’t gotto that. We haven’t got to that. Yeah, just seating it. I’m just seating it. So,

01:14:37 Sonny Von ClevelandSo you go to the game.

01:14:40 Jim ColeYeah,

01:14:40 Sonny Von ClevelandHow did you?

01:14:41 Jim ColeYeah,

01:14:42 Sonny Von ClevelandWould love to know how you coped in that.

01:14:44 Jim ColeHow did you cope? You’re out there in right field. You don’t remember the game.

01:14:49 PeterYeah, and actually, I do remember. And I don’t. I think it was at this. No, it was ahundred percent. And this makes so much more sense now that I’m thinking thisout loud. And this is how writing the book happens. Is like I start having thesememories just come flooding back.

01:15:04 Sonny Von ClevelandIt’ll do that. Yeah,

01:15:05 PeterWe’re in the third base dugout, and I had trouble with coaches, as you can imagine,my whole career. And it was no different. Why, why, Peter? And I didn’t figure that

out until like a few months ago. Why I had these problems with coaches? I am like,oh, that makes a lot more sense now that I think about it that way. I went offon oneof my coaches. I think I got, I might have even got. I don’t know if I got pulled out ofthe game. I almost got pulled out of the game because I went at one of my coaches,cussing him out in his face. I don’t know what he said to set me. I probably wasn’teven that much. Wouldn’t have taken that much at that time, clearly. But I clearlywas not.

01:15:43 PeterIn a good state of mind, but people with complex PTSD are expertcompartmentalizers, and I still am. It actually is a great tool sometimes, but at thetime, it was breaking me.

01:15:56 Sonny Von ClevelandFor sure. So after this, you arrest him. We do. That phone call is all you needed toget a warrant.

01:16:06 JeremyYeah. We we had something the Commonwealth Attorney wanted, like. Anopposing pillar in the community, so to speak. You know what I mean? Someonewho could really cut away at the underminings and remove the support. You know,because we knew when word got out that how bad this was, he was he was goingto lose all community, all of his support. It even brought members of his own familyin to talk, for fear of their own children.

01:16:38 Sonny Von ClevelandWhich at this point we don’t even know that he had other family. This seems to be asolo operator.

01:16:44 JeremyBut it brings in siblings, nieces, nephews. Oh my, who believed it once thingsstarted to come out, even their support. I think his only staunch supporter, in theend, was his mother.

01:17:00 Sonny Von ClevelandAnd so that’s that’s something that we see a lot of is family support for the abuser.Yeah. Not believing it, even when you go through a trial. Yeah, I went through thatsame thing when you talked about, you know, having to be there with family. I stillhad to go to my grandmother’s house. Yeah, they put me on the phone with myuncle while he’s in prison, who’s my primary abuser, and I have to talk to this manon holidays. So that dynamic exists because these families will just outright don’tbelieve you, and I don’t understand that.

01:17:36 Sonny Von ClevelandIt just annoys me. I’m getting offtrack. Talk about the arrest. How does that playout?

01:17:44 JeremyUnfortunately, I didn’t get to be there for it.

01:17:46 Jim ColeAnd this is actually the second time that he’s arrested on this case because you’darrested him initially after you found the exchange student.

01:17:56 JeremyWell, the exchange student, and we lodge other charges, so he’s he’s still in jailwhen we lodge the charges. Yes,

01:18:03 Jim ColeNow so he’s not re – arrested. He got held. You just launched more charges.

01:18:07 JeremyNot then. Not then. He’s held, and at that point in time, he is lobbying Peter’smother, neighbors, other people in the community for support. Yeah, like justsending out blanket thanks to his defense team. I think he actually writes Peter’smom’s letters because she was giving me letters that he would send to her. And itwas basically begging for her support, you know. Wow! But not an owning of any,not admitting to anything.

01:18:41 Jim ColeWas he still claiming his innocence?

01:18:42 JeremyYes, yeah. He’s like, I didn’t do this, right? Yeah. And on the way over here, I pulledan email that I had, I had gotten, and I read through it, and it’s just the things youforget about a case like this. It’s, it’s a. I could talk all day long about this case, right?Um, one of the neighbors. Was so inflamed by this request for support that shefired offthe snarkiest, most awesome responses to his questions. You know, he wasbasically looking for character people to prop up against any kids that had comeforward. I want to say kids, like they’re all adults at this point in time. And you know,she was like, he asked one time, like, about what a good person he was, and.

01:19:29 JeremyTime they spent together, and her responses go from, well, the type of person wethought you were, and these conversations would have never happened had weknown who was really living beside us. And it was just like she cooked him, youknow what I mean? She cooked him up, and she sent me the email. Nice. Theydidn’t call her. They really didn’t call anyone. But so we’re working working on thecase. We’re following up with additional interviews. I get another phone call fromanother person who’s come forward, and now this this person probably stillstruggles, or at least last I spoke to them was struggling more than than any of theother known known people who came forward, the survivors. I was blown away tohear his story, and that’s where the two girls come in.

01:20:28 JeremyThis, this kid at the time, his his dad had a professional job in Washington D.C. thathe couldn’t walk away from. This kid’s mom got sick and passed. So we had a dadtrying to take care of two kids, a boy and a girl, who had to go to work. Wasexploring options like nannies. I don’t know how it happened because the dad wasso. Like eaten up with what he subjected his children to, that I could never reallytalk to him to find out how Hamilton got insinuated into their life. But one thing Idid love to tweet John Hamilton about: he became the nanny, so I would refer tohim as the Manny, and that would make him so mad when I would call him theManny. I love that he got hired into this man’s home and in charge of basically like aten-year-old boy.

01:21:25 JeremyAnd like an eight or nine year old girl, and he was there for a couple of years, andhe instantly began taking steps. He had full unfettered access. Like some of hisworst crimes in that house, and he was very young. I think John was probablyeighteen or nineteen at the time that this was happening. John Hamilton, yes.

01:21:48 Jim ColeHoly sh! Really? So this is early,

01:21:51 JeremyEarly.

01:21:52 Jim ColeSo that’s a great question. How old in in the in the five years or four years ish thatthe abuse was going on with you? How old was he then? Yeah, thirty two. Oh,

01:22:02 JeremyHe was he was in his lower thirties. Yeah, he he was a professional.

01:22:06 Jim ColeYeah, by that point, I mean it’s kind of put like twenty years of abuse, but but likethe reality is, this he’s probably been doing this since he was a teenager.

01:22:16 JeremyYeah, and and and since you say that, I’ll go ahead and. Let this let this go. When wedid sit down, when John did come to the his defense team and say, “Hey, I’ll pleadguilty to these crimes,” I have to get out on bond, though. If I’m going to do it, Ihave to get out on bond. And we countered, right? We countered with theagreement: you have to come in. The Commonwealth Attorney at the time, IanRodway, he was awesome, like one of the the deputies.

01:22:49 JeremyHe was like, ” Let’s make him queen for a day. You can tell us about everything, butyou have to tell us about everything. Has to be true, and we’re going to check it with

a poly. We’ll give you bond because then John has served the case against himthrough his own words, which there’s no stronger evidence.

01:23:06 Speaker 5Right?

01:23:07 JeremyRight. So, in one sense, legally brilliant. What we were never considering is that thiswas all John’s endgame: get free. Yeah. Bounce. Well, why else does he want bond?Yeah. What?

01:23:23 Sonny Von ClevelandWhat other?

01:23:25 JeremySo, but but one of the things, and to get back because I know I’m drifting. To getback to what he said, he said that he began his earliest known crime against a kid.He believed he was 13 to 14. Wow. And he was volunteer swim coaching at a localpool, and the kid was 10 years old, and it started with touching. You know, you’re inthe water teaching kids to swim. It’s easy to have the feels, and then it progressesto exposure, and then some. I identified that kid,

01:23:57 Speaker 5And they lived.

01:23:58 JeremyA few states away, and we tried to have FBI agents meet with them with Caffies,their child forensic interviewers.

01:24:12 JeremyThat person refused to cooperate, and so I think it’s even worse than what thatwhat that was. But that was that was teenage manchild John starting his thing, anddoing.

01:24:28 Sonny Von ClevelandThat most of his life. And so he until we stopped him.

01:24:31 JeremySo so he he gets the bond,

01:24:33 Sonny Von ClevelandHe gets the confession,

01:24:35 JeremyHe gets the bond, and then we have a plea date set. We’re good to go. I go to thegrand jury where I get indictments. It’s just me and the grand jury there. I give themall the facts of the case. They say, “Yep, yep, these are verified crimes.” They issue

the indictments. We’re set for the plea, and we go there. Rose, his mom, she’s onthe front row. She’s talking to his defense team. The judge calls the case. He’s notthere. Defense team goes, “Oh, he’ll be here in a minute.” I don’t. I don’t knowwhat’s going on.

01:25:09 JeremyHe should be here. We’ve talked about this. We get to the end of the docket, and thejudge is like, “Counselor, call your case, and we need your guy.” And they call thecase. He’s not there. And I go talk to the mom, and she’s like, “We went to Europe,and I don’t think he’s coming.” I’m like, “Wow, what?” She’s like, “Wow, yeah, we wentto Europe, and.” And he told me he was going to spend a couple more weeks there,and then two weeks later, I got a call from an unknown number, and he said, ” I’mnever coming home again.

01:25:44 Jim Cole” So he didn’t have to surrender his passport, which yeah,

01:25:48 JeremyYeah, wow,

01:25:49 Jim ColeNo bit of hindsight there.

01:25:51 JeremyWell, you know, this goes into certain things like that’s not the end all be all. Likethis guy, I think he’s one of the the people that would probably take steps, and Idon’t want to like. Tell someone how to plot their escape from the country, but youknow there’s ways that that could have been like this was going to happen. Hewould have planned it, you know, in a way. And he’s gone, and no one knows wherehe is. And we start working on the case with the U. S. Marshals. Where are we?

01:26:22 Sonny Von ClevelandAre you being filled in on this? As I knew,

01:26:25 JeremyYeah,

01:26:26 PeterI knew he had jumped bail or a bond,

01:26:28 Sonny Von ClevelandBut did they tell you that he got bond? Was there any communication happening?We went down. We arrested him. He’s gonna plead guilty, but we’re gonna give hima bond. I don’t think I knew.

01:26:38 JeremyI definitely told families. I don’t know if I specifically told you or not, but it was all

with the sense of, hey, we’re we’re not going to have a trial. You know what I mean?Most people were relieved at that. Once, yeah. Once you start the legal machine, itsounds great till you realize what’s going to be asked of you, and. Going through atrial as a law enforcement professional can be rough, emotionally, mentally,physically, everything. When it’s you’re the survivor, the person that has to give thewords in front of the person you’re accusing and the jury, people start to freak andthey start to worry. And these are open courtrooms because it’s circuit court; it’syour final level court. Anyone can come in.

01:27:28 JeremyAnd people start to really feel the stress, and and so I was met with a lot of relief.He’s going to plead. That’s great. We never in a million years considered he’s goingto go to Europe and try to find a non-extraditable country, which there really aren’ta few. There aren’t a lot, thankfully. But we knew this was our chance to make thecase and make it stick. And maybe get more, and the agreement was: if you abideby this, we’ll only charge you for what we’ve charged you. If you don’t abide by it,you open yourself up to every other thing, right? So the case gets potentially better,and you know nothing we can change about it now. But he flees. People comeforward, and they provide information. Family members come forward.

01:28:25 JeremyAnd provide investigative leads to us. We find out that he is spending time in aforeign country with a previous exchange student’s family. Who, again, I suspect hecommitted crimes against that person. They would not cooperate, and they wereactually back in the U.S. on a second program. And he was with this person’s mom,who was. Clearly, that he couldn’t be accused of these crimes, I must support him.He bounced around at places. He was in numerous countries. When he finally gotcaught, a lot of what he the reason he got caught and tracked was a family memberprovided information on an electronic device that the marshals and Interpol wereable to exploit, and they found him. and Polish border guards snatched him offabus.

01:29:22 JeremyAlong with some U.S. legal people, and he was on his way to Czechoslovakia, andonce he got to Czechoslovakia, his next plan was to go to Russia, where we wouldhave never gotten him back. Yeah, he fluent Danish, German, Czech, and he wasalmost conversational in Russian by the time we called. What? Highly intelligentman,

01:29:49 PeterHighly smart man. I had no no clue of he. I mean, he was in my life for fifteen years.I had no idea he spoke another language.

01:29:58 JeremyHe learned that over there. Oh, smart!

01:30:01 PeterIn that little bit of time. Oh, it was. He was gone a while. How long?

01:30:04 JeremyThis show was on America’s Most Wanted three times. How long was that? I didn’tknow. How long was he gone? It was over a year. Really? Yeah.

01:30:12 PeterSo he wasn’t caught until my junior year.

01:30:15 JeremyYeah, he was caught late. Like what? That makes so much.

01:30:18 PeterWhen we got the court, it was almost immediately after that. Junior year was myworst year of playing, and I couldn’t figure it out. Writing this book, I thought it wasmy sophomore year. I was like, I had a pretty good year my sophomore year. I musthave. I was all right, and no, yeah, is that’s crazy.

01:30:35 JeremyYou know, one thing I forgot to, there was a brief moment that he had made bondafter he was initially charged for everything, but he he had a half hearted likesuicide attempt. We we used that to take to revoke his bond, and then and thenultimately when the bond got revoked again, that’s what brought him back to thetable for this final. Sure, gotcha.

01:30:57 Sonny Von ClevelandSo he’s gone for yeah. So he’s gone for nearly a year.

01:31:00 JeremyOh, Sonny, but doesn’t let me just tell you, like, child abusers don’t have to be bigimposing people. No, but John Hamilton is probably about six five. He was probablywhen we arrested him. He said he was 285. He was like three bills.

01:31:18 PeterHe got over 300. I remember.

01:31:19 JeremyYeah, he was over 300. This is a large, large man. And I’ll never forget when we gethim, and the marshals call me, and they’re like, ” What are you doing?” I’m like, ” Idon’t know.” He’s like, ” You want to go to Poland?” I’m like, ” Well, before he goes,we got John.” I’m like, ” Let’s go.” I’m like, ” When are we going?” He’s like, ” We’regoing in like three days.” I’m like, all right. Well, I don’t know if I can do that. Hegoes, he goes. If we don’t have him within a week, the Polish authorities are gonnalet him go. Yep. He’s causing so many problems at the Polish prison. He’s taughteveryone how how to make complaints to like the Hague and everything about

treatment in prison. Oh yeah. And they’re like, you guys got to come get this guybecause we’re getting rid of him. Yeah. And they sent me a video, and it was God. Idon’t even know if I have it now, but Polish prison is an ugly place.

01:32:14 JeremyLooked like he was in something offa video game. Prison, the cell he was in, andhe’s all like hunched over in there. But we go, and the Polish guards bring him tothe airport. I land in Poland. We go the hotel, and they’re like, “You guys gotta beback at the airport at six a.m.” I was in Poland for less than eight hours. Yeah, lessthan eight hours. Go the airport, and I am walking the airport with these twomarshals. And I hear somebody from across the the concourse, Jeremy, Jeremy. AndI look, and I’m like, I’m like, I don’t know who that guy is, but clearly he knows myname. He lost about one hundred and thirty some pounds. Wow. He was thin likeyou. They’ve been starving him. Ah, he’s just gotten himself in shape. He completelychanged his appearance. He could have walked past me had he not verbalizedanything, and I would have been like, “Where’s John?” Wow.

01:33:13 JeremyHe complete. I told Jim, I’ll send the pictures to you guys. What he looked like whenwe arrested him, and what he looked like when we got him from Poland, and you’llbe like, wow, oh my god, like a skeleton, amazing, amazing, crazy, crazy. But we gethim back. He enters his plea. We talked about charging him additional things, andultimately, we were like, if we charge him with additional things, we’re going to haveto put on a full blown trial. Because that’s what his legal team was saying. We’regoing to fight everything if you guys bring more, or we’ll plead him like we agreed.So even though we had the leverage for additional charges, it was like a couple ofthe guys I didn’t know if we could get them through it, and our advocates wereconcerned we could not get them through it. So ultimately, Khan was like, “Let’stake these five placeholder.”

01:34:11 JeremySurvivors that bracket a time of over twenty years of abuse, ranging from ten yearolds to fourteen year olds or sixteen year olds at the time.

01:34:21 Sonny Von ClevelandIt’s enough to cook him.

01:34:22 JeremyAnd we will we will let the judge sentence him, because we were confident that thejudge was going to really hold him accountable. They did, yeah. And and it wasokay. I mean, I can talk a little bit about some things that happened at the. At the atthe plea, but it was pretty interesting from a detective sense to see the survivorssee each other in the courtroom for like the first time. Because like I don’t talk toPeter about about this one, and I don’t talk to Peter.

01:34:56 Sonny Von ClevelandAbout these survivors for the first time to come in,

01:34:58 JeremyRight? Because that’s not my place. That’s not my story. I investigated this, but that’sPeter’s to tell. That’s that other person to tell. You know, that’s their thing. And so tosee them see each other, to see them hear the victim impact statements that theyelected, and Peter spoke, and well,

01:35:22 Sonny Von ClevelandSo you were in there too.

01:35:23 JeremyPeter’s mom spoke, and a couple of the other guys spoke, and one of them had tobe removed to the courtroom because they let him have it in in a level that youknow the court was like, okay, that was a little much, sure, but to have them get tohear. What happened to other people from that person’s mouth? I mean,

01:35:45 Sonny Von ClevelandI can’t speak to what you’re going. No, but I’d love to know what that what thatmoment was like for you.

01:35:49 PeterI remember it. I remember sitting next to the judge in that box, and I looked at himthe whole time I read that statement. Yeah,

01:35:57 Sonny Von ClevelandYou were doing this, weren’t you? Yeah, right to the judge.

01:36:00 PeterNo, I was looking at John. You were looking at John. I couldn’t. I was staring right atJohn the whole time I read that, looking right through his soul. But kind of backingup that girlfriend that I told in high school. So at this point, she’s you know got aboyfriend. She’s married to that guy now, has kids and a family. But and I hadn’treally talked to her. She came with me to the trial to support me. Oh wow! My momcame with me, but I made my mom agree that when I went up there, that shewouldn’t be in the courtroom. I made her leave for my testimony because it waspretty graphic or my statement. And again, there I am, like protecting the peoplethat were.

01:36:36 PeterProtecting me, yeah, yeah, and I — I mean, I — it’s a blur. It’s one of again.Sometimes I see it in first person. Some some of these memories. That’s one whereI have the the camera is behind me and it’s fuzzy, and I’m walking in, and Iremember walking, you know, across the the parking lot, and and I sitting in one ofthe the aisles, but I don’t remember a whole lot from from that day.

01:37:01 JeremySo, John and his legal team decided they would take. A mitigation tactic for John’ssentencing. They knew because he pled guilty that he was going to have to dealwith the the sentencing. I don’t know whose idea it was, but I I suspect it was John’sbecause, like anything, he tries to be in control. But John had his defense teamargue on his behalf that he was also a survivor and that he was also a person whowent through child sexual abuse, which may or may not be true.

01:37:36 JeremyI gave John the chance to talk to me about that. He chose not to provide any details.I could do anything about. So, you know, that’s on him. I was going to do my part,but he wouldn’t do it, which led me to believe it was more excuses, more game andshit from John. But John had his defense team argue that the reason this happened,that he was responsible, but he did this because he was victimized and he was acloseted homosexual, which. Infuriated me because you don’t have to behomosexual to abuse children, no matter what the sex is. And I thought it was themost reprehensible thing to say. And it was so proud of the judge who had thatsame visceral reaction and was just dressed him down and hit him for near for likenearly the max on everything. And the only breaks he gave him.

01:38:34 JeremyWhere he held fifteen years offin case John ever survived, that he’d be able to havefifteen years over his head. Where if he ever messed up, and I just, you know, that’sone of those things. I think that whole sexuality, sexual preference, are things thatabusers use to twist up little kids, especially when they’re boys, to concern themabout their to where. It will give them pause, right, before they reveal themselves asthat, or fear of what their peer groups may or may not say to them.

01:39:11 PeterI remember, there was a time John and I were paintballing. I don’t know how old Iwas, but he told me he was like, I think I’m gay, and it was like all this manipulationinto what he was doing to me. It might have been after it had stopped, actually, buthe told me that.

01:39:28 Sonny Von ClevelandSo, what what did it do for you when? The sentence came down. Did did it doanything for you? I mean, was there a moment where you were like, ” Good,” or wasit just like?

01:39:39 PeterI mean, each charge that was read, I was just like, ” Yes.” I remember just like thisweight falling off, like they’re giving it to him.

01:39:47 Jim ColeYeah, we haven’t just like what was the ultimate sentence?

01:39:51 JeremyYeah, what did he get? Yeah, he got fifty – seven years, maybe fifty – five, with fifteenover his head.

01:39:56 Jim ColeAnd how old was he at that time?

01:39:58 JeremyUm. Close to forty. Yeah, so this should be a life sentence for him.

01:40:03 Jim ColeYeah,

01:40:03 Sonny Von ClevelandSo unless you’re somehow.

01:40:05 JeremyYeah, this this should be a life sentence for him. And there’s more with him thatdoesn’t end my John Hamilton involvement. Yeah, but you know it happens well wellpast the sentencing date. But yeah, he’s he’s going to be there forever.

01:40:22 PeterBut we had also talked about doing a federal. We talked about that last nightbecause. My abuse happened across state lines many, many times. The WorldSeries, you know, all these trips he would take me on, and so there was also that. Ifhe was, I was going to say push for that. If he didn’t get enough time, I was like,we’re going to get him some more.

01:40:39 Sonny Von ClevelandHe’s effectively in there for the rest of his life.

01:40:41 JeremySo, and so the the AUSA at the time, Mike Rich, who was like a legend, and theEastern District of Virginia, senior prosecutor. He’s passed on now, but he was theprosecutor I was talking to, and. His fear about levying federal charges was that itwould either upset the applecart and interfere with the plea, and make him go tojust guns, guns blazing. We’re fighting everything, and and the concerning thingabout when you’re dealing with a state prosecution and a federal prosecution, likethe cases can’t mingle in any way. Like the state case can’t backstop the federalcase, or vice versa.

01:41:26 JeremyAnd you get into very tricky legal things and technicalities that could, you know,void a verdict, right? Completely. So, so as soon as we had those verdicts and hewas set for sentencing, like the feds are like, we can’t jeopardize that. Yeah, just wecan’t force him to try to lodge an appeal on some basis, right or wrong, and

jeopardize this. We have to preserve that, and so that’s ultimately Peter why we wedid not do. The federal charges when he went to Arizona, where he took teams toOhio, where yeah, you know, like so.

01:42:02 Sonny Von ClevelandThen we get to the the culmination, and you have to start picking up the pieces ofyour life and moving forward, which ultimately leads to your book. Yeah, and whatwhat was life like from that moment to the Peter that we now know, who’s about torelease this book.

01:42:22 PeterThat’s a loaded question, Sonny.

01:42:23 Sonny Von ClevelandI think it’s important for for people to hear totally the the secondary and tertiaryyeah ramifications of being a survivor because not everybody can pick themselvesup. Yeah, not everybody can go through and and have what seems to be. I thinkwhat survivors are trying to find is normalcy. Yeah, like what does a normal life feellike? Yeah, because we’ll never know.

01:42:47 PeterYeah, but I do think something we we we kind of. Breezed over was when he wasout on bond, the America’s Most Wanted episode in the filming of that. I have anexcerpt from the book that I think really well describes it. I would like to read it ifthat’s okay. Yeah, of course. Okay. So this is chapter two. It’s called Backlit. There is aman pointing a camera at me, and his only job right now is to make sure you can’ttell it’s me. We’re in a suite at the Game Day Suites in Athens, the kind of placeboosters rent fall Saturdays, leather couches, a wet bar.

01:43:19 PeterA wall of windows over a city. This afternoon, has that has no idea any of this ishappening. The producers have killed the light, the overhead lights, and set a singleone behind me, so that when the camera finds my chair, I’m not I’m not a face. I’man outline, a shape with a voice. They run the voice through some something todrop the pitch, sand offanything in it that might belong to a specific person. By thetime it airs, I’ll be a black silhouette speaking in a stranger’s register, and that is theentire point. That’s what we. All of us are in this room to build a version of me thatnobody can recognize. It’s a strange thing to be good at hiding when the rest ofyour life is spent being very seen. Because the rest of this spring, I’m extremelyfindable. I’m a starting right fielder for the University of Georgia, an SEC programon television most weekends. My name in box scores, a kid people in the state canpick out of a lineup. In a few weeks, there’ll be a draft, and my name will be in thattoo. I.

01:44:15 PeterI have spent my whole life making myself easy to see, bigger, faster, moremeasurable, the surface buffed to a shine, and there I am in a rented suite, asking aman to erase me frame by frame, so I can say out loud to a camera, to the country,the one thing I have never said out loud to anyone. Please help us find them. Theywant B-roll, so we go to the cages. They film me from behind, just back. Just theback of a kid in a batting cage, the swing, the turn of the hips—nothing that saysGeorgia, no logo, no number. The wardrobe checked twice for every anything thatmight give it away. I hit offa tee for a camera that is being careful to not know whoI am. I am even now, even here, performing. I’m good at it. I’ve always been good atit. It’s the thing I am about to spend the next decade and a half learning. I was toogood at. This man I’m asking the country to find is named John Hamilton.

01:45:07 PeterUntil a few weeks before this, he had a standing place at our table. He had been hehad been my coach, then my family’s friend, then a fixture. Birthdays, holidays, theseat that was always saved. There is no clean word for what he also was the wholetime. That is the reason I’m sitting in this dark suite at all. But I’m getting ahead ofit. The silhouette is the end of the story, or close to it. To understand how a collegebaseball player ends up backlit on national television, asking a stranger to erasehim from his own life on camera, I have to take you back to the first person I told.She was a junior, I was a senior, and it happened over a chat window in my dad’soffice, in the computer, on the computer on the left.

01:45:49 Jim ColeWow! Wow! Wow!

01:45:53 Sonny Von ClevelandPowerful. It’s going to be such a powerful book,

01:45:56 PeterBut it is crazy. I mean, literally that. Maybe next, I don’t know when it aired or whenit was recorded, but like I’m on national television one moment, then I’m onnational television another moment as a shadow.

01:46:08 JeremyTell us the name of your book.

01:46:09 PeterOh yeah, book’s called Gold in the Cracks. So, I mean, like I said, baseball was reallywhat kept me on on the rails for so long, and like I also said, I had a lot of hardtimes with coaches that junior year when all this was apparently going down. Ithought it was my sophomore year. Now it makes a lot more sense. My junior year, Iwent into my head coach’s baseball office, my head baseball coach’s office, and toldhim I quit. Wow! A guy who was supposed to be playing professional baseball at the

end of this year, I said I was done. I talked to my dad about it for a while. I couldn’tdo it. There was one coach that I had that was a yeller and a screamer, and with mybackground and my history, like it wrecked me. And so I went in there to quit, andmy head coach convinced me not to.

01:46:58 PeterEnded up getting drafted by the Nationals later than I had hoped because I did nothave a good year that year. Imagine, imagine that. And I went back to college in mysenior year. I played the best year of baseball because this was my last year. I wentinto that year saying, “This is my last year. I’m done after this.” And after baseball, Ichanneled everything into the weight room, into going. Going back, getting mymaster’s into work, into getting my PhD, which is no small feat.

01:47:34 Sonny Von ClevelandNo, no, that’s so. But you were drafted by the Washington Nationals, correct? Yeah,which is a major league baseball team for people that don’t follow. So not only didyou maybe won the World Series, right? Not only did you make it to the apex ofbaseball in that regard, and you chose to then pursue your life.

01:47:51 PeterI mean, I got a PhD. Yeah, I mean, I was a peak. Like physical specimen, I looked incollege like I do now. I could run a four four forty, a six two sixty. I could throwninety upper nineties from the outfield. I was the listed as the fastest person in theGeorgia draft class, the the state of Georgia draft class. But I was falling apart onehundred percent on the inside. Sure, and I was talking to my that hitting coach thatI would drive and see in ninety five South and Stafford, and.

01:48:25 PeterI lost my train of thought there. I’m getting emotional. But what was that? Help meout here.

01:48:36 Sonny Von ClevelandYou were leaving baseball. You just left, and you were driving down to see thatcoach. Yeah, like your journey. Yeah,

01:48:43 PeterMy journey. It’s gone. It’s okay. Yeah, it’s all right. Yeah.

01:48:47 Sonny Von ClevelandI would tell us about. Yeah, sorry. The PhD. It’s okay. You went through. You got thePhD.

01:48:53 PeterYep. And so. You know, I really poured everything into my work. That was my copingmechanism was performance. I performed as as hard as I could in every aspect ofmy life, while still falling apart at the seams.

01:49:12 Jim ColeIt’s interesting because I am watching your body language right now. No, you areyou are yeah, you are clammed up, tight up. Right? I am not trying to make you selfconscious at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But but it’s like it’s interesting because I think.Most people would think, you would you would have the toughest time talkingabout the four to five years that the abuse is going on. Yeah, but here we are, like,right at this later point. I think it really, it really goes to how, like you said, this thehow the trauma. I think people think.

01:49:45 Jim ColeAnd we we were we were talking about this earlier, Jeremy. It’s like this wordclosure, right? And it’s it doesn’t really exist. It’s not a thing.

01:49:53 Sonny Von ClevelandIt’s like the quote that he said, right? Yeah. The the trauma itself, the act itself, is notthe most worst part. It’s the confusion. Yeah. It’s the the turmoil that goes on.Those.

01:50:05 PeterAnd then I would also say, like, and I want to get into this, like, what it’s done to mybody. Yeah. Um. It’s wrecked my body in so many ways, but. To just kind of go downthe path of like what brought me to this point, you know, I got married at 25, andwe had two kids. We we have two kids, and abruptly in the middle of COVID, afterour second child was born, my wife said we’re getting a divorce, and at that time.

01:50:41 PeterWas also accusing me of abusing my children. For about a year of my life, I had tosit through not just a divorce, which is his own trauma. Yeah, I had to sit throughquestioning by the police, questioning by CPS, being treated like John Hamilton in alot of ways. Yeah, I had to take a polygraph test,

01:51:04 Sonny Von ClevelandWhich is a whole other level of retraumatization.

01:51:07 PeterFrom this.

01:51:07 Sonny Von ClevelandBut did you know about this?

01:51:09 JeremyYeah.

01:51:09 Sonny Von ClevelandYeah,

01:51:10 JeremyAnd Peter Peter was calling me, and we were talking.

01:51:12 PeterI was crying on the phone. I was like, ” Dude, this is so fucked up, man. No, it’sfucking with my head. Yeah, it wrecked me. I can imagine. And so that was my firstgut punch of my adult life. Um, I was also teaching elementary school at the time. Ihad to go into my principal’s office, and I had to tell my principal what was going onbecause I’m working with kids being investigated by CPS and. God bless her. Shewas like full in my corner. She was like, I know that’s not true. Like, but like sittingdown for a polygraph test with a police detective and answering graphic questionsabout abusing your children was dramatic. Three hours of answering questions andbeing questioned about it. It was. It wrecked me. So at that time, I was teachingand.

01:52:06 PeterDealing with all of this, I got strep throat four times that fall. Two, two earinfections. The stomach flu, COVID, hand, foot, mouth. My son got five earinfections. Had to put tubes in his ears. Like it was wrecking us. Wow, physicallywrecking us. Not to mention the mental aspect. So that was gut punch number one.That put me into sales because I couldn’t physically continue pouring my life into.Other people’s children, while my life was falling apart, I just I didn’t have it in meanymore, and so I went into sales, and then got laid offfrom a job not long afterthat, and that totally destabilized my life. And then found another job that ended upcurdling, and I thought it was anxiety, and so I went down this path of treatinganxiety and depression, which led to a really adverse effect from some medication.

01:53:02 PeterThat led to these blackout rage events. That I was just white knuckling my waythrough this job, and being very successful at it. Like there’s the performance partof it, like compartmentalizing and being able to perform. I was still very successfulat this job, and then was very abruptly and very unfairly, I’ll say it in that way, firedfrom that job, and that was five months ago, and it wrecked me.

01:53:31 Sonny Von ClevelandAnd so we’re. I think we’re seeing a pattern of ripple effects from trauma. Yeah, ofhow that can affect your life. Do you? You talked about the blackout rages. Do youever feel like there’s a Jekyll Hyde thing going on at all? Is there like a?

01:53:47 PeterNo, this was purely a medication related impact. Like I didn’t experience it beforethat, and I haven’t experienced it since.

01:53:54 Sonny Von ClevelandIt was just the the medicinally induced.

01:53:56 PeterI had been. Logging all of these receipts of symptoms onto a single receipt—theonly one that I had a name for—and it was ADHD, and that’s what I was treating.And then that job started to get toxic, and I started treating anxiety and depression,thinking that’s what it was. And then I had this reaction, and then I got on anotheranxiety medication. It helped a little bit, but nothing was ever fixing what wasactually going on. And then this happened, and I went into a psychiatrist, and I waslike, “There is something wrong with me.”

01:54:27 PeterAnd I don’t know what it is, and I know I’m not treating the right thing. I need adiagnosis, and so he screamed me, and that’s when I, for the first time, wasdiagnosed with complex PTSD, something that a lot of people don’t know about,and I didn’t know about. But now that I do, I’m like, that’s what’s wrong with me.

01:54:44 Sonny Von ClevelandWhat’s wrong with us? We see the ramifications of all the improper self – diagnosis.Yeah, right. And because then you will try to treat those things, thinking that wehave that, and.

01:54:53 PeterAnd And so I hit this fork in the road where, I mean, I was having a hard. I couldbarely show up to work, and it’s that crossroad in your life you only come to a fewtimes where it’s like this can either be the thing that takes me out, or I can takecontrol and I can control the narrative and I can heal from this, and that’s what’sgotten me into the seat. That’s what led.

01:55:13 Sonny Von ClevelandAnd then you have begun what I think, as someone who has authored my ownbook about my life, my memoir. One of the most therapeutic practices you’ll ever gothrough. It’s gonna suck. It’s gonna hurt. It’s gonna feel great. It’s gonna make youangry. It’s gonna make you happy. Tell us about the book.

01:55:31 PeterYeah. So the name of the book is Gold in the Cracks. Three days after that breakup, Ihad flown back, and I got to show up to work. She’s on short – term disability. Shegets to do whatever she wants. I’m. I got to show up. I got two kids that I got tofeed. I don’t have a choice. I got to perform, and I’m good at it. I can. I can usuallyfigure it out, but I started going to therapy, EMDR therapy, one that I had nevertried before, and I’m like, “Why did no one tell me to do this before?” And mytherapist’s like, “You need to write a book.” So, anyways, three days after thatbreakup, I’m sitting across from a customer, and she starts telling me this storyabout the Japanese art form kintsugi, and.

01:56:18 PeterIf if you don’t know what this this is, it’s when it’s an old Japanese craft. Instead ofwhen a ceramic piece breaks, a bowl drops. Instead of sweeping up the shards andthe pieces and throwing it in the trash, you repair it and you put gold in the cracks,or sometimes silver. And the gold, the fractures, the fault lines that were once thereare now the most beautiful piece of that that ceramic piece. And she’s telling methis story, and I’m like. This is my metaphor for my life. Like I’m sitting across fromher in pieces. I’ve made that decision. Like this isn’t going to end me. I’m going tofigure this out. I’m good at figuring stuffout. I can do this. And I was like, that’sgoing to be the name of my book. And so that’s what the cover artwork kind ofrepresents. And I don’t know. I think what’s really cool. I I had never read a memoiruntil I read Sunny. So I had no concept of what a memoir is supposed to look like.And so I actually like that because I like. I’m.

01:57:16 PeterI’ve always been a little different. I like to take a different approach, and so it’s avery focused memoir. It’s very topical, walking through this story, and there’s there’scomedy, a line of comedy that that comes throughout, like trying to earn the gutpunches with some funny lines. Like one of them, we we didn’t really talk about this.John had a roommate. His name was Don, and Don got arrested on childpornography charges. I don’t know what year that was. After, yeah, and. There wasa porta potty company in Northern Virginia called Don’s Johns, and I was like, “There is no better metaphor for these two pieces of shit than a steaming hot portapotty.” Wow,

01:57:58 Sonny Von ClevelandThat’s a whole other story in itself.

01:58:00 PeterSo there’s this whole line of comedy also throughout, because that is a copingmechanism of trauma I’ve learned, and it’s a way of reflecting kind of on whatyou’ve gone through, and it’s actually very therapeutic and healing. So good. Andalso, I think what’s really cool about this is it’s written from inside of the healing. I’mnot writing this from a future self. Yeah, I’m writing this in the process of real time.In writing it, I should I should qualify that it’s hardly written. Similar to how I wrotemy dissertation in five weeks. Um, that’s the engine that has no brakes. I am all gas,no brakes. That’s just that’s me, and that’s the trauma, honestly. And I’ve.

01:58:41 PeterNow experienced a lot of the side effects of that, but throughout it, there are thesejournal entries, and it gives the reader kind of a real time look, and they’re dated bylike days since the breakup, so you can kind of track my thought processthroughout, and it’s my internal monologue on the page in healing, in myreflections. Rather than editing those pages, I thought it was kind of a cool tool toput in there, but yeah, it’s been. It’s been really therapeutic to write. Honestly, I’m

really excited to share it. I think I hope some people will see it and relate becauseit’s really a book about complex PTSD. I didn’t know that when I started writing it. Ithink that’s.

01:59:23 Sonny Von ClevelandWhat makes the book so interesting to me. Is it’s a book that’s being written in realtime as the process is happening, and it’s basically you discovering something youdidn’t even realize existed. That is something that you need it, yeah. Right, that justthat whole word soup right there of things that are happening is very intriguing forme. I’m very excited to.

01:59:47 PeterI think and Jeremy, Jeremy was a part of this one, this piece of the story. But I’vebeen plagued with back issues my whole life, lower back issues since age 14. Mydad, he’s an orthopedic surgeon, like expert in that area. We went and got bonescans, fMRI’s, X – rays, MRIs every. Specialist, you could imagine, you know,Washington at the time, Redskins now Commanders, doctors, physical therapists,and no one could tell me it was wrong. They said it’s a unstable SI joint is what it gotdiagnosed as. That’s all they could point to. Well, after this breakup, within a fewdays, my back went out. Imagine that, or no, not not within a few days. Excuse me, Iwas in this acute phase for like two weeks. Once I left that acute phase.

02:00:33 PeterMy back went out after my nervous system kind of started to let go, and I textedJeremy and I was like, “Jeremy, when did my abuse stop?” And he was like, “Justbefore your fourteenth birthday.” I texted my dad. I was like, “When was my firstdoctor’s appointment for my back?” He was like, “Just after your fourteenthbirthday,” and I was like, “That’s not a coincidence.” And so I started looking anddoing research into some of Peter Levine’s work in somatic experience. And foranybody who’s been through some trauma, like I would highly recommend lookinginto that because it has explained so much of what I have been through. Whenyou’re a victim of sexual abuse, you involuntarily contract your pelvic floor in thesemoments of fight or flight. Your iliopsoas muscle, which connects your spine to yourlower body, is one of the primary muscles engaged when you’re in fight or flight.

02:01:22 PeterAnd those are also two things that lead to lower back pain, and I just found that outlike two months ago.

02:01:29 Sonny Von ClevelandSo that’s why I have back pain. The body keeps the score.

02:01:32 PeterAll body keeps the score. I mean, these. I writing that chapter backlit by the end ofit. I was literally convulsing, and that started happening after my divorce. And I

always logged it under anxiety because that’s what I thought it was. Well, PeterLevine talks about these things called neurogenic tremors. He watched. Animalsflee from predators. Then, once they were escaped, they would lay down, theywould shake, and they would go on their way. And it was the nervous system’s wayof all that energy that had been stored to flee coming out. And I’m experiencingthose.

02:02:03 Sonny Von ClevelandKind of like deregulating itself.

02:02:05 PeterYeah, it’s healing. It’s healing. I always thought it was like a problem, but it’s healing.

02:02:08 JeremySo I told Jim about this on the way over here. We’re at his house yesterday, and Ihaven’t seen you in 16 years. You come up the stairs. And you go to give me a hug,and I hug you. Your whole body, every molecule is just vibrating. Really? And I canjust feel you. And I’m like, is Peter going to break down? Like it was just like yourbody was just.

02:02:33 PeterI don’t. I didn’t even log that.

02:02:35 JeremyIt was the craziest thing, and then it faded out. That’s that’s. And but I saw yourface, and like I was, you know what I mean. And I was like, I told you, I’m like, it waslike. Peter was quivering when I gave him a hug. How how crazy to hear thatscience put behind that,

02:02:55 Sonny Von ClevelandYeah. And it’s such a profound journey for the two of you, right? Like, you know, it’sit resonates really hard because, like, this man is the hero that I wish I would havehad most of my life, right? And and to be able to share a space with him now, like,he’s more than just a best friend to me, right? Like, it’s it goes, it transcends that.And I think what the two of you have is something rare. And special, right? And andit’s, it unfortunately it’s not as rare as you might think, because it happens a lot. Um,but I think by doing something like this and putting your story on display and andhaving the courage to come out, it just can’t be easy for you either as a lawenforcement officer. Understanding you you didn’t go through the trauma, butyou’ve had your own trauma dealing with this, and that’s something I think is agoal.

02:03:43 Jim ColeWell, yeah, and you talk about that, I think. What we experience in these cases isvicarious trauma. It’s a it affects us differently, but a lot of the symptoms are verysimilar. Yeah,

02:03:59 PeterYeah. I mean, I’m reading and speaking to that, and this is a little bit different. ButI’m reading Sonny’s memoir, and I’m like, he’s on a different path than I took. Yeah,sure. But listening to his, listening to your thoughts and your processing of of yourtrauma, it’s the same. Stufflike I’m like you’re in the hole talking to Mallory acrossthe hall and thinking through all this shit and I’m like that’s and then the samething.

02:04:22 Sonny Von ClevelandHuge majority of it becomes internal dialogue yes as I’m walking through pacingthe cell back and forth and then speaking things out loud which is why I’m such abig proponent of using our voices and talking and speaking out that’s why I wantedto put those journal entries in because that’s what.

02:04:37 PeterIt is.

02:04:38 Sonny Von ClevelandInternal monologue that as well yeah.

02:04:40 Jim ColeYeah it’s interesting because like. You’re like why we’re sitting here today. Actually, isJeremy texted me and was like, “Hey, man, do you have a few minutes?” And so wegot on a call. He’s like, “Hey, I had this case, and there’s a survivor, and he’s reallylooking for a an outlet, right, to to voice this and to and it was interesting. It’salmost serendipitous because I I told Jeremy I said interestingly enough.

02:05:15 Jim ColeWe’re we’re standing up a podcast, and we’re going to be filming just in a fewweeks, and but I had concerns, right? And you remember, you told me that, yeah. Isaid, Jeremy, I said, listen, I said I need to talk to him because not like it can be. Ifyou’re not ready to have the conversation, it can be traumatic and cause deeperissues, right? So I needed to be sure that we weren’t going to cause harm.Retraumatizing you. This wasn’t going to be. This was going to be helpful for you,not retraumatizing for you. So we had a conversation, but as we spoke, I it was soclear to me that I needed to put you in touch with Sunny, right? Because I can relateto you in the way that Jeremy relates to you, right?

02:06:08 Jim ColeBecause I have been the Jeremy to others, and and and and we see the cases, but Ican’t relate to you the way that that Sunny can relate to you, and that you can relateto Sunny.

02:06:19 PeterAnd Sunny was the first person I talked to that I knew was also a survivor of abuse.

02:06:23 Sonny Von ClevelandWe got on Zoom, and we must have been on there for a couple hours.

02:06:27 Jim ColeYeah, because you and I talked for a good hour and a half.

02:06:31 Sonny Von ClevelandYeah,

02:06:32 Jim ColeAnd then I was like, okay, I’m going to put you sent the three way, and, And Sonnyhit me up. He’s like, ” Oh, I’m talking to Peter on Saturday. I think it was.” Yeah. Andthen afterwards, he’s like, ” Just got offlike two and a half hours.” Yeah, we were cutfrom the same cloth.

02:06:46 PeterWe are.

02:06:47 Sonny Von ClevelandWe are so. It’s crazy how you see that dynamic in survivors. That and I see it moreoften than you would think. The more survivors you start interacting with, the moreyou’ll see that there are these correlating experiences that we all have. Like yousaid, a lot of the same modalities that I experienced in my own. Self healing journeyyou’ve been experiencing that we’ve experienced those same things even thoughour abuse was different our circumstances are different our places different we’restill going through because that’s what healing looks like right like we can which iswhy we have created this platform of bringing people from all aspects of the fightto the table because we are so dedicated to trying to eliminate this problem.

02:07:32 Sonny Von ClevelandBut to educate the people that are experiencing it right now, I think is the biggestand most important thing: educating parents, educating kids on what they can do.As you have said, we can’t do something and we don’t know how to do. So, as anabused child, I don’t know how to tell you until you open the door for me to tell you.We need to create that culture.

02:07:53 Jim ColeYeah, and I hope that you know even bigger. Like, look, law enforcement isincredibly important to this fight. Right, holding offenders accountable. People likeJohn. And there are others that that just need to be away from society because ifthey’re in society, they they’re going to offend one hundred percent. And so that’san important piece. The problem is with the with the enforcement side of it is we’realmost always after the fact. The harm has occurred, and we’re coming in after thefact. But where I think we’re where we moved the needle is prevention, and the onlyway that we.

02:08:28 Jim ColeWe are able to do is if we talk about it, and we talk about because one of the thingsthat I see is, you know, I’ve worked in this field for for twenty plus years, and whatwe see is there’s a it’s difficult for people to talk about. There’s not a lot of fundingthat goes to this problem because of how uncomfortable it is, right? And and it’s it’sbecause if we don’t talk about it, well then. We’re never going to get the funding.We’re never going to get the the eye on this, and so you know, I think this platformof bringing people like you on, who are able to talk about, you know, verytransparently, like you, oh, you’ve opened up your soul, right here, at this table, andand I really thank you for that. One hundred percent, really, really, both you, youknow, and but really, I’m grateful for that. But I do think that.

02:09:27 Jim ColeThere are people on the other side of this camera that are going to be impacted byit, and hopefully there will be parents who are like, ” Oh, wait a minute! This person— I’ve seen these trade, I’ve seen these activities. Maybe I need to be moreprotective, or or preventing it from happening in the first place.

02:09:47 Sonny Von ClevelandIf you know what to look for, that’s right.” You know how to step in, and that’s whereprevention begins, right? Right.

02:09:52 Jim ColeBecause most parents are looking for the stranger danger, the white van, theboogeyman. That’s what they’re, and that’s really not the threat. I mean, it’s reallynot the threat.

02:10:00 PeterAnd I think, really, I mean, as a parent, a lot of it is like that culture you create inyour home and what that family unit looks like. I grew up in a house like, if I had anemotional problem, if I had an outburst, and I was a reactive kid before the abuse,had ADHD before the abuse, so I was already on a hairpin trigger. I got sent to myroom. I didn’t deal. I didn’t talk about my emotions. I didn’t have thoseconversations. So, like creating a safe space for your kids, that’s the biggestprevention. Absolutely, not just informing them about like what is appropriatetouch. You know what. You know what should adults see and not see, and who’ssafe isn’t safe, and what do you say if something happens. But it’s creating aenvironment in your house where it’s safe to talk about emotions.

02:10:39 Sonny Von ClevelandAnd I think having those types of conversations with your children also helps.Expedite their learning process because in the in the culture of AI in social mediathat we have now, kids are learning at a much more rapid rate. They’re going tolearn very adult things much younger, and so by engaging, I have an eight-year-oldand I engage my eight-year-old like he’s thirty, right? Like I, I will literally have

discussions with him. I want you to start. To challenge to use the brain, to challengethe thought process, critical thinking, critical thinking skills. Challenge you at thisyoung age. Why don’t you like this? Why are you uncomfortable? What about thismakes you uncomfortable? Identify the feeling, and if parents start having that typeof culture in your home, your child is going to be that much more comfortabletelling you if something does happen, right? So prevention then becomes the themainstay because.

02:11:32 Sonny Von ClevelandYou can’t get to my child. If you shoot my child a DM, I’m the first one that knowsabout it. If you touch my child, he’s going to scream, run out of the room, and tellthe first human being he sees, right, what’s happening, right. And so that’s howprevention starts.

02:11:47 Jim ColeAnd the other thing we know about that is is children who are armed with thoseskills because that it’s a skill. It is. It’s a skill. It’s a learned skill set. It’s not generallyinnate. It’s a learned skill set. But children who are armed with those skill set. Areless likely to be victimized because the offender sees that as a hardened target, andthey will move on to somebody who’s not. And it’s the same with violent offenders. II actually just saw something. There was a study where um they actually looked atthe way that the people’s gait, how they walk, just just like how they walk down thestreet, and they they took.

02:12:26 Jim ColeViolent offenders who are in prison and show them video of people just walking onon a a street, and a bunch of different violent offenders who used to rob people andtake advantage of people in that way, and they basically said, okay, out of all thesepeople, here here’s twelve different people just walking down the street. Who wouldyou target? And and they and they looked at like based on the way people walk, ifthey’re not paying attention, they’re not situationally aware. Yeah, that would be atarget, or they were walking kind of like meekly, like timid, and that would besomeone they would target. And so it’s kind of the same thing. Yeah, it’s give themthe tools. Yeah, you have you have to give them the tools, right?

02:13:09 JeremyI think you know, in addition to like what we’re trying to teach the kids with tools,we have to have parents who are willing to question: Why does this person wantaccess to my child?

02:13:23 Sonny Von ClevelandOne hundred percent.

02:13:24 JeremyWe can’t. Take at face value. It’s just the love of the game. They love baseball, so

they want to impart that. Okay, so why is this person with no child, or why is thisperson with no tie to this? Or we have to question those things. And and and oneone other thing, as well as a parent has to give the kid permission. Not every kid willbe ready that first time you give it to them. You have to know if you thinksomething’s wrong.

02:13:54 JeremyBe present and continue to engage because there’ll come a time. Fourteen-year-oldPeter may never have told his mom or dad. Yep, grown-up Peter has learned a lot.So we have to be fair to ourselves, right? And and don’t look at your fourteen-year-old self from your adult man’s eyes. Mean and knowledge.

02:14:16 PeterIt’s hard. It’s hard not to like the guilt of knowing that people were abused after me,and I could have said something. Is probably the.

02:14:22 Sonny Von ClevelandThat’s hard because I’ve gone through. I had my whole family on that because had Isaid something the first time and stayed with it, none of my cousins would havebeen. They were all done after me. There’s yeah. So that guilt is real, and and itstays that way. I think. Lastly, before we wrap this up, parents, it’s not a one – timeconversation. On average. This is it was a global study. Forty-six minutes is theamount of time parents spend talking to their kids about this. Not a day, or amonth, or a year in their entire lifetime. Forty-six minutes is the amount of timeparents spend talking to their kids about this. I don’t know if it was ever. I mighthave been zero for me. Right. It needs to be a mainstay conversation in yourhousehold. Yeah. Do you celebrate birthdays? You celebrate anniversaries. Make ita.

02:15:13 Sonny Von ClevelandAnnual thing at least to hey let’s have a checkup let’s have this conversation I do itweekly with my son it’s not hard to do right just have that conversation create thatspace gentlemen thank you guys thank you from the bottom of my heart thank youso much for coming all the way out here and sharing this it is a very profound tosee this dynamic between you two Peter thank you my friend for for your braveryand your courage and breaking my hand yeah He’s.

02:15:42 JeremyA performance machine. I didn’t need that. Like I told you then, first conversation,and I told you at court, Elian, I’m proud of you for having the guts and the courageto do this. It doesn’t matter when it comes. This is a big thing, and it takes a lot todo this.

02:15:59 PeterAnd I don’t know if I’ve ever told you, but I am so grateful for you, Jeremy.

02:16:04 JeremyYou’re my hero. I’m not your.

02:16:06 PeterYou caught him. You have supported me over the last sixteen years and given meway more than I’ve given you. Never failed to answer my texts or calls, no matterhow unhinged they are. I am just so grateful for the work that you have done andcontinue to do.

02:16:23 Sonny Von ClevelandIt was my pleasure. Wow, these guys are awesome. Yeah, thank you guys. Thankyou guys so much for that. If this episode has affected you or touched you in anyway, please make sure you share. This episode. This how you can get involved. Youas a viewer. This how you can help with what we’re doing. Join the team. Becomepart of it. Join the fight. Go to ourrescue dot org. That’s o u r r e s c u e dot org.Check out the Unlikely Allies podcast. Engage in the community. You can jump onour Facebook. You can jump on our Instagram. Engage with us. Spread themessage. That is how we take a chunk out of this fight. The way that we’re going tostop this prevention.

02:17:06 PeterI would also just say one more thing: If you are listening to this podcast and you’vebeen affected by abuse in any way, and you are still holding that, reach out. I amhappy to talk. I would love to talk. Reach out to somebody. It’s worth it. Like it isworth getting it out there. It sucks sometimes, but it is absolutely worth it.

02:17:25 Sonny Von ClevelandI couldn’t leave this without saying that. There is so many resources available.Again, you can check out our website. There is tons and tons of resourceinformation available for Jim Cole. I’m Sunny Von Cleveland. This is Unlikely Allies,and we will see you on the next one.