1 00:00:00,083 --> 00:00:03,878 Thank you for tuning in to Voices for Freedom, an anti-human trafficking 2 00:00:03,878 --> 00:00:04,838 podcast. 3 00:00:04,838 --> 00:00:07,132 We want to acknowledge that the content we discuss 4 00:00:07,132 --> 00:00:10,635 can be emotionally challenging and may evoke strong reactions. 5 00:00:11,052 --> 00:00:14,889 The stories we share often delve into tough subjects related to human 6 00:00:14,889 --> 00:00:18,143 trafficking, which may be difficult for some listeners to hear. 7 00:00:18,518 --> 00:00:20,770 Our goal is to raise awareness and promote 8 00:00:20,770 --> 00:00:24,190 understanding of the complexities surrounding human trafficking. 9 00:00:24,607 --> 00:00:27,610 Listener discretion is advised. 10 00:00:33,158 --> 00:00:33,700 Coming up 11 00:00:33,700 --> 00:00:37,787 on Voices for Freedom, an anti-Trafficking podcast. And 12 00:00:37,787 --> 00:00:41,332 so all the women, they let them walk in to go get their suitcase. 13 00:00:41,875 --> 00:00:46,755 And then one of the main traffickers - 14 00:00:47,088 --> 00:00:50,091 I see him pull a padlock out of his pocket. 15 00:00:50,508 --> 00:00:53,303 And I'm thinking, "What on earth is going on?" 16 00:00:53,303 --> 00:00:57,807 And then I see him shut the door and he got the part 17 00:00:57,807 --> 00:01:01,853 where he was getting ready to lock them in, literally lock them in. 18 00:01:02,020 --> 00:01:06,232 He went to put the padlock on, and I got my finger in between. 19 00:01:06,357 --> 00:01:10,528 So he's pushing down on the padlock and trying to lock them in. 20 00:01:10,695 --> 00:01:14,574 And all I can think is, is if he gets this lock on, 21 00:01:15,033 --> 00:01:19,579 there's no way I can help these girls. Where is that first padlock today? 22 00:01:19,704 --> 00:01:23,374 I put it in my pocket and my thought was this lock will never 23 00:01:23,374 --> 00:01:24,459 enslave someone again. 24 00:01:30,882 --> 00:01:31,758 Welcome to 25 00:01:31,758 --> 00:01:35,261 Voices for Freedom, an anti-human trafficking podcast 26 00:01:35,261 --> 00:01:38,264 brought to you by Operation Underground Railroad. 27 00:01:38,473 --> 00:01:41,017 Along with my longtime colleague Jessica Mass, 28 00:01:41,017 --> 00:01:42,185 I'm Matt Osborne. 29 00:01:42,185 --> 00:01:45,855 We are so excited to kickoff this podcast series. 30 00:01:45,855 --> 00:01:51,903 We have an amazing lineup of episodes, featuring experts in aftercare, 31 00:01:52,112 --> 00:01:55,156 law enforcement, cyber forensics, 32 00:01:55,156 --> 00:01:58,535 open-source intelligence, and we're going to have a great time. 33 00:01:58,535 --> 00:02:01,830 Thank you so much for tuning in. For this first episode, 34 00:02:01,830 --> 00:02:04,082 we are going to kind of interview each other. 35 00:02:04,082 --> 00:02:08,795 Most of the episodes you'll see either Jessica or me interviewing 36 00:02:08,795 --> 00:02:09,254 the guests. 37 00:02:09,254 --> 00:02:12,382 Some are Operation Underground Railroad employees and contractors. 38 00:02:12,382 --> 00:02:14,342 Others are outside partners. 39 00:02:14,342 --> 00:02:18,221 We're here to raise awareness about the issue of child exploitation 40 00:02:18,346 --> 00:02:19,722 and human trafficking. 41 00:02:19,722 --> 00:02:22,559 In O.U.R., we've been around for ten years now 42 00:02:22,559 --> 00:02:25,562 as we start to move through 2024. 43 00:02:25,895 --> 00:02:28,690 I've had a chance to work with Jessica for years. 44 00:02:28,690 --> 00:02:32,861 It's not hyperbole or, you know, false piety, you know, trying to suck up 45 00:02:32,861 --> 00:02:36,489 four points to say that this individual is someone I look up to more 46 00:02:36,489 --> 00:02:40,118 than almost anyone else in the world because we have been undercover. 47 00:02:40,118 --> 00:02:44,080 We have been in the darkest layers of evil, 48 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,291 and we'll talk a little bit about that throughout today. 49 00:02:46,291 --> 00:02:50,587 But, Jessica, thank you so much for agreeing to do this and to co-host. 50 00:02:50,587 --> 00:02:53,882 And you have such an amazing background. If you don't mind kind of starting out, 51 00:02:53,965 --> 00:02:56,801 what brought you to O.U.R.? What were you doing beforehand? 52 00:02:56,801 --> 00:02:58,887 What are some of the many jobs you've had at O.U.R. 53 00:02:58,887 --> 00:02:59,888 throughout the years? 54 00:02:59,888 --> 00:03:01,681 And we'll just kind of start there, and we'll roll through 55 00:03:01,681 --> 00:03:03,933 and we'll do a few segments as we go through today - 56 00:03:03,933 --> 00:03:06,811 this first ever episode of Voices for Freedom. 57 00:03:06,811 --> 00:03:07,604 Well thank you, Matt. 58 00:03:07,604 --> 00:03:09,230 And I think it's fun because 59 00:03:09,230 --> 00:03:14,485 people get to see some of the behind the scenes of O.U.R. and hopefully learn 60 00:03:14,485 --> 00:03:18,698 a lot more about what trafficking actually is and how it is different 61 00:03:18,698 --> 00:03:22,744 in so many different countries, regions, what it looks like in the United States, 62 00:03:22,744 --> 00:03:26,372 so I'm excited that we have this opportunity to be able to do this. 63 00:03:27,081 --> 00:03:30,251 So, I came on with O.U.R. in 2015. 64 00:03:30,335 --> 00:03:32,003 Man, hard to believe it's been that long, huh? 65 00:03:32,003 --> 00:03:36,382 I know. It seems like yesterday, and then it seems like a lifetime ago. 66 00:03:36,382 --> 00:03:39,886 I think you and I are two of maybe the longest-serving employees. 67 00:03:39,886 --> 00:03:41,888 Maybe two out of the three, something like that, 68 00:03:41,888 --> 00:03:43,556 but we've been around a long time. 69 00:03:43,556 --> 00:03:45,099 Yup, and we've seen a lot. 70 00:03:45,099 --> 00:03:48,311 Umm. So some of my background 71 00:03:48,311 --> 00:03:51,481 is, I started working in nonprofit 72 00:03:51,773 --> 00:03:55,235 when I first, I had moved to Florida. 73 00:03:55,235 --> 00:03:59,280 I was working down there in 2001 and had - I've worked throughout 74 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,910 the United States in six different states, working with everything 75 00:04:03,910 --> 00:04:08,790 from sexual exploitation to extreme poverty to human trafficking. 76 00:04:09,249 --> 00:04:13,336 And I worked within the foster care system at first and saw 77 00:04:13,670 --> 00:04:17,590 so many of the different things that were happening to these children 78 00:04:18,007 --> 00:04:20,176 when they were with their biological family 79 00:04:20,176 --> 00:04:23,805 and then also how difficult it was for them to be in foster care. 80 00:04:23,805 --> 00:04:26,808 Some of their vulnerabilities that they had. 81 00:04:27,016 --> 00:04:29,477 And then I also lived in Africa 82 00:04:29,477 --> 00:04:32,897 right before coming on with O.U.R. So 2014 83 00:04:32,897 --> 00:04:34,816 I lived in Africa. 84 00:04:34,816 --> 00:04:38,611 And then when I was moving back, somebody had told O.U.R. about me 85 00:04:38,611 --> 00:04:42,907 and my background with working with kids for so long and 86 00:04:42,907 --> 00:04:47,328 all the different vulnerabilities and human trafficking, sexual exploitation 87 00:04:48,663 --> 00:04:51,541 that I got the opportunity to come on with. 88 00:04:51,541 --> 00:04:52,750 O.U.R. Yeah. 89 00:04:52,750 --> 00:04:54,794 And over the years - and again, we've 90 00:04:54,794 --> 00:04:58,589 obviously gone through a lot of changes, are continuing to go through changes. 91 00:04:58,589 --> 00:05:01,592 We just announced our new CEO, Tammy Lee. 92 00:05:01,592 --> 00:05:04,053 We're so excited to have her here, whole new board of directors. 93 00:05:04,053 --> 00:05:08,308 But, talk about those early days as really you were building from scratch 94 00:05:08,558 --> 00:05:09,809 our aftercare program. 95 00:05:09,809 --> 00:05:10,768 And what I always say, you know, 96 00:05:10,768 --> 00:05:14,439 I was former CIA, we had former Homeland Security, Navy SEALs. 97 00:05:14,731 --> 00:05:16,733 We didn't know anything about aftercare. 98 00:05:16,733 --> 00:05:21,404 We thought the host countries could take care of the survivors themselves. 99 00:05:21,571 --> 00:05:24,907 Once we realized in late 2014, early 2015 100 00:05:24,907 --> 00:05:28,036 that wasn't the case, we knew we had to create an aftercare program, 101 00:05:28,036 --> 00:05:30,580 and we're grateful for you coming in on the ground level. 102 00:05:30,580 --> 00:05:32,165 But what were the things you experienced 103 00:05:32,165 --> 00:05:36,085 in those early months and years to build up our aftercare team in the U.S. 104 00:05:36,085 --> 00:05:37,628 and around the world? 105 00:05:37,628 --> 00:05:41,215 So when I first came on with O.U.R., I kind of thought that there was already 106 00:05:41,215 --> 00:05:44,218 an aftercare program in place and 107 00:05:44,510 --> 00:05:48,097 and what I found out is there wasn't really an aftercare program. 108 00:05:48,431 --> 00:05:52,602 O.U.R. was still brand new, a startup company at that time 109 00:05:53,061 --> 00:05:54,187 about a year old, 110 00:05:54,187 --> 00:05:56,397 a year and a half old when I came on. 111 00:05:56,397 --> 00:05:59,317 And so, I looked at all 112 00:05:59,317 --> 00:06:03,196 the different operations that you and the ops teams were doing around the world 113 00:06:03,488 --> 00:06:06,908 and trying to figure out, on our shoestring budget, 114 00:06:06,908 --> 00:06:12,955 how are we going to support the survivors that are having interventions, 115 00:06:12,955 --> 00:06:16,417 being rescued through O.U.R. operations? 116 00:06:17,085 --> 00:06:19,629 And, to run an aftercare home, 117 00:06:19,629 --> 00:06:23,508 on average, it's about $500,000 a year. 118 00:06:23,508 --> 00:06:24,759 I would say that's an average. 119 00:06:24,759 --> 00:06:27,428 So, some more, some less. 120 00:06:27,428 --> 00:06:31,224 And to think about all those countries that you guys were working in, 121 00:06:31,349 --> 00:06:35,228 and our small budget, there was no way we could start 122 00:06:35,228 --> 00:06:37,563 from the ground up aftercare homes. 123 00:06:37,563 --> 00:06:41,651 And then from my previous experience with living internationally, 124 00:06:41,651 --> 00:06:46,239 working with other organizations, working in nonprofit for so many years, 125 00:06:46,781 --> 00:06:53,037 my background helped me realize and remember that the best way 126 00:06:53,037 --> 00:06:57,834 to help survivors of all these different situations 127 00:06:58,042 --> 00:07:01,045 is to really go in and see who's already doing the work. 128 00:07:01,671 --> 00:07:05,091 And so, the aftercare program 129 00:07:05,383 --> 00:07:08,261 that I developed in the beginning was really first, 130 00:07:08,261 --> 00:07:11,597 go sit at the feet of the experts in each country. 131 00:07:12,223 --> 00:07:14,767 Listen. Be as humble 132 00:07:14,767 --> 00:07:19,188 as you can, and say, "How can we support you? 133 00:07:19,230 --> 00:07:21,441 How can we build up quality care?" 134 00:07:21,441 --> 00:07:24,235 So we would vet different aftercare homes. We still vet different 135 00:07:24,235 --> 00:07:27,238 aftercare homes before we partner with them. 136 00:07:27,572 --> 00:07:32,160 But we want to honor them as the experts in their country, 137 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,204 and we want to make sure that we are supporting them, 138 00:07:35,204 --> 00:07:38,416 not trying to say we know better about trafficking 139 00:07:38,416 --> 00:07:41,669 in your country and how to help survivors in your region. 140 00:07:42,044 --> 00:07:45,715 And so the aftercare program, that was the origins of it. 141 00:07:45,715 --> 00:07:50,845 And then we were able to help build aftercare homes, remodel aftercare homes, 142 00:07:51,137 --> 00:07:55,808 provide finances for survivors to go to everything from elementary school 143 00:07:55,808 --> 00:07:59,020 to university to trade school, 144 00:07:59,020 --> 00:08:03,107 building libraries, and 15 passenger vans 145 00:08:03,107 --> 00:08:06,527 so that they could have community excursions 146 00:08:06,527 --> 00:08:09,697 and make sure that they're not just institutionalized within the home. 147 00:08:10,239 --> 00:08:12,783 And so there's all these different things that we helped 148 00:08:12,783 --> 00:08:18,164 with - mental health providers so that it would be holistic aftercare. 149 00:08:18,331 --> 00:08:20,875 But it was always, how can we support you? 150 00:08:20,875 --> 00:08:24,587 And we really built genuine, authentic relationships 151 00:08:24,587 --> 00:08:27,548 with the founders and aftercare home directors. 152 00:08:27,673 --> 00:08:31,761 We worked a lot with the kids when we would visit them to make sure 153 00:08:31,761 --> 00:08:35,223 that if there was any complaints - because kids don't have a filter, 154 00:08:35,348 --> 00:08:39,727 they'll tell you if something's going on and they'll also tell you their dreams. 155 00:08:39,727 --> 00:08:44,649 And it really helped empower both myself and the whole aftercare team 156 00:08:44,649 --> 00:08:47,652 to be able to say, "How can we actually help?" 157 00:08:47,652 --> 00:08:48,694 Because we want to help. 158 00:08:48,694 --> 00:08:49,487 We don't want to hurt. 159 00:08:49,487 --> 00:08:53,824 We want to empower. We don't want to take away from anything 160 00:08:53,824 --> 00:08:57,161 or if O.U.R. support suddenly wasn't there, we want to make sure 161 00:08:57,161 --> 00:09:00,164 that aftercare home was still able to support themselves 162 00:09:00,498 --> 00:09:06,128 and hopefully have a better program because we partnered with them. 163 00:09:06,337 --> 00:09:08,047 Yeah, and I remember those early years too. 164 00:09:08,047 --> 00:09:09,674 You were all about collaboration. 165 00:09:09,674 --> 00:09:10,216 And we always said 166 00:09:10,216 --> 00:09:12,134 we would go through the back entrance first, meaning 167 00:09:12,134 --> 00:09:15,263 we would look at the aftercare infrastructure in the country. 168 00:09:15,263 --> 00:09:16,806 And there were a couple of countries early on 169 00:09:16,806 --> 00:09:17,974 I mean, you remember. We won't name them, 170 00:09:17,974 --> 00:09:19,517 but they wanted us to come support 171 00:09:19,517 --> 00:09:21,852 with operations, but we refused because they didn't 172 00:09:21,852 --> 00:09:23,771 have the aftercare infrastructure in place. 173 00:09:23,771 --> 00:09:26,816 And we've done a lot and you know, throughout the episodes 174 00:09:26,816 --> 00:09:29,860 on this podcast, we'll talk a little bit more about aftercare. 175 00:09:29,860 --> 00:09:32,863 I know that coming up in a few episodes down the line, 176 00:09:32,863 --> 00:09:33,990 you're going to interview an expert 177 00:09:33,990 --> 00:09:37,076 on one of our partner organizations, and that's what we really do, right? 178 00:09:37,076 --> 00:09:40,830 We collaborate. We have some expertise and areas of expertise, 179 00:09:40,830 --> 00:09:43,916 but we don't know everything and we're not in all the countries. 180 00:09:43,916 --> 00:09:44,917 And that's why I loved 181 00:09:44,917 --> 00:09:48,629 about what you did, is you'd find the aftercare experts in each country 182 00:09:48,879 --> 00:09:50,506 because everything's different, correct? 183 00:09:50,506 --> 00:09:54,218 And then talk about how you pave the way then for what I used to do, leading 184 00:09:54,218 --> 00:09:58,180 the operations teams to make sure that if at all times we were doing 185 00:09:58,180 --> 00:10:00,766 everything that did not retraumatize victims 186 00:10:00,766 --> 00:10:02,893 and that would set things up so that your team could come in 187 00:10:02,893 --> 00:10:05,980 and really always have a victim-centered and trauma-informed approach. 188 00:10:06,188 --> 00:10:10,484 Yeah, and it's been a fun journey because you learn so much along the way. 189 00:10:10,818 --> 00:10:14,655 You learn how to apologize as well if you make mistakes 190 00:10:14,655 --> 00:10:16,490 and hopefully you get forgiveness. 191 00:10:16,490 --> 00:10:18,409 And we made a lot of mistakes in the early years. 192 00:10:18,409 --> 00:10:21,370 We say that with full, you know, candor and transparency. 193 00:10:21,370 --> 00:10:23,748 Yeah. So that's a little bit of my background. 194 00:10:23,748 --> 00:10:26,167 Why don't you tell us about you, Matt, and some of your background 195 00:10:26,167 --> 00:10:30,379 because I remember when we first started, and one of the things I remember 196 00:10:30,379 --> 00:10:33,382 hearing is, "he's former CIA." 197 00:10:33,633 --> 00:10:36,302 And I was like, I have no idea 198 00:10:36,302 --> 00:10:39,513 what all that entails outside of the movies I've seen. 199 00:10:39,513 --> 00:10:41,641 So he's former CIA. 200 00:10:41,641 --> 00:10:43,726 Do we need to, like, hide our phones? 201 00:10:43,726 --> 00:10:46,145 Is he a spy? What's going on? 202 00:10:46,145 --> 00:10:49,148 So, tell us a little bit about your background and how you ended up 203 00:10:49,148 --> 00:10:50,024 at O.U.R. 204 00:10:50,024 --> 00:10:52,902 Well, as you know from knowing me since 2015, I'm not cool, 205 00:10:52,902 --> 00:10:55,488 but the background's cool. I get a lot of gravitas from that. 206 00:10:55,488 --> 00:10:57,740 And so 12 years with the CIA and U.S. 207 00:10:57,740 --> 00:11:00,826 Department of State, and yes, I saw some of the James 208 00:11:00,826 --> 00:11:04,455 Bond movies growing up, the Jason Bourne movies, and I wanted to do that. 209 00:11:04,455 --> 00:11:04,997 And then I realized I'm 210 00:11:04,997 --> 00:11:08,167 not nearly as cool as those guys, but having a really interesting time 211 00:11:08,167 --> 00:11:11,337 after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, 212 00:11:11,671 --> 00:11:14,590 how that galvanized me to want to do something for my country. 213 00:11:14,590 --> 00:11:17,134 And I worked for Republican George W. Bush. 214 00:11:17,134 --> 00:11:18,886 I worked for a Democrat, Barack Obama. 215 00:11:18,886 --> 00:11:21,097 For me, it wasn't political. It was about U.S. 216 00:11:21,097 --> 00:11:22,306 national security. 217 00:11:22,306 --> 00:11:25,976 So I worked issues of, you know, terrorism against the homeland, illegal 218 00:11:26,143 --> 00:11:27,853 narcotics, organized crime. 219 00:11:27,853 --> 00:11:30,523 And then I went to Spain, and in the U.S. embassy in Spain, 220 00:11:30,523 --> 00:11:33,526 I was asked to work something called Trafficking in Persons, 221 00:11:33,567 --> 00:11:36,237 right? The TIP Report for the U.S. Department of State. 222 00:11:36,237 --> 00:11:40,366 I'm embarrassed now to say, but back then I thought it was prostitution. 223 00:11:40,574 --> 00:11:42,326 I thought it was the movie Pretty Woman. 224 00:11:42,326 --> 00:11:46,163 You remember the Julia Roberts character who decided when she'd work, who 225 00:11:46,163 --> 00:11:47,331 she'd have to sleep with, 226 00:11:47,331 --> 00:11:49,750 how much she'd charge, and she'd get to keep all the money. 227 00:11:49,750 --> 00:11:51,794 As you know, that really doesn't happen anymore. 228 00:11:51,794 --> 00:11:53,879 There's always a pimp. There's always a trafficker. 229 00:11:53,879 --> 00:11:56,006 There's normally exploitation involved. 230 00:11:56,006 --> 00:11:59,468 Well, I have two daughters who are now college age. If anyone - 231 00:11:59,468 --> 00:12:00,886 and I don't know how good the cameras are - 232 00:12:00,886 --> 00:12:03,764 if the gray hair and the sideburns gives you any indication 233 00:12:03,764 --> 00:12:06,934 but raising daughters through these dangerous times of social media 234 00:12:07,143 --> 00:12:11,188 that we'll talk about in subsequent episodes and in demand and pornography, 235 00:12:11,439 --> 00:12:15,943 I really felt God was calling me to try and focus on human trafficking. 236 00:12:16,235 --> 00:12:21,532 So, I got a call in 2013, 2014 to and was asked to join 237 00:12:21,532 --> 00:12:24,910 this organization that was just starting up, and I thought, "Wait a sec. 238 00:12:24,910 --> 00:12:27,663 Uncle Sam pays me faithfully twice a month. 239 00:12:27,663 --> 00:12:30,791 I've got a pension waiting for me in just six years. 240 00:12:30,791 --> 00:12:33,961 If I stick it out, I have government healthcare the rest of my life." 241 00:12:34,420 --> 00:12:37,214 But I thought, "No, you know, there's something more to life. 242 00:12:37,214 --> 00:12:39,550 You've got to dedicate to where you think God's calling you." 243 00:12:39,550 --> 00:12:41,343 So it was a big leap of faith 244 00:12:41,343 --> 00:12:44,138 to join an organization where I only got paid if the donations come in, 245 00:12:44,138 --> 00:12:47,141 but that's what I did in August of 2014 246 00:12:47,141 --> 00:12:51,437 and have done a lot of jobs like you, but really led our operations teams. 247 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,982 In our next segment, we'll talk about one of the most, in my mind, 248 00:12:54,982 --> 00:12:58,527 sort of dangerous, complicated, serious operations you and I helped lead, 249 00:12:58,903 --> 00:13:00,404 but haven't looked back since. 250 00:13:00,404 --> 00:13:02,656 Been very grateful. It's an amazing organization. 251 00:13:02,656 --> 00:13:03,699 It's a wonderful time. 252 00:13:03,699 --> 00:13:06,285 And that's really what this podcast series will be. 253 00:13:06,285 --> 00:13:08,704 And so I'm grateful to partner with you on this, 254 00:13:08,704 --> 00:13:10,748 and we're going to wrap up this first segment, 255 00:13:10,748 --> 00:13:15,795 but when we come back, we again will go deep undercover 256 00:13:15,795 --> 00:13:19,215 as it were, and Jessica and I will talk about Sage's 257 00:13:19,215 --> 00:13:22,426 Prayer, an amazing, daring, harrowing operation. 258 00:13:22,426 --> 00:13:25,763 Not because anything about great how we are, but these amazing women, 259 00:13:25,930 --> 00:13:29,642 the courageous women, the survivors who featured in that operation. 260 00:13:29,642 --> 00:13:30,726 So don't go anywhere. 261 00:13:30,726 --> 00:13:31,727 We'll be back soon. 262 00:13:31,727 --> 00:13:34,730 Voices for Freedom, an Anti-human Trafficking podcast, 263 00:13:34,772 --> 00:13:37,274 brought to you by Operation Underground Railroad. 264 00:13:39,860 --> 00:13:41,237 A big thanks to our 265 00:13:41,237 --> 00:13:45,115 sponsor OUR Rescue Store for supporting our podcast. 266 00:13:45,491 --> 00:13:49,495 The OUR Rescue Store is committed to responsibly sourcing products 267 00:13:49,662 --> 00:13:52,665 that ignite conversations about human trafficking, 268 00:13:52,915 --> 00:13:56,335 raising awareness and contributing to the movement against it. 269 00:13:56,752 --> 00:14:00,339 With more than enough colors, designs, and items to choose from, 270 00:14:00,464 --> 00:14:03,926 there is definitely something for you. Find something 271 00:14:03,926 --> 00:14:07,012 you'll be proud to own, and be an advocate for change. 272 00:14:07,388 --> 00:14:11,058 Visit store.ourrescue.org and use 273 00:14:11,058 --> 00:14:15,145 the promo code Voices10 for 10% off your purchase. 274 00:14:15,437 --> 00:14:19,316 That's Voices10 on store.ourrescue.org. 275 00:14:19,316 --> 00:14:22,319 276 00:14:24,780 --> 00:14:25,656 Welcome back 277 00:14:25,656 --> 00:14:28,742 to the Voices for Freedom podcast. 278 00:14:28,742 --> 00:14:31,954 We are so excited that we are getting the opportunity 279 00:14:31,954 --> 00:14:35,040 to have this conversation with you all today. 280 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:40,004 And I want to start off with asking you, Matt, 281 00:14:40,004 --> 00:14:43,841 we did a operation called Operation Praying Sage. 282 00:14:44,216 --> 00:14:47,636 It was an operation you and I were both on, probably 283 00:14:47,636 --> 00:14:50,848 one of the most dangerous operations that we've ever done. 284 00:14:51,140 --> 00:14:54,560 And so would you walk us through a little bit of that? 285 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,688 How did that get started, the undercover work, 286 00:14:57,688 --> 00:15:01,275 all of that side of things, of Operation Praying Sage? 287 00:15:01,275 --> 00:15:04,028 Yeah, I think - and that's another reason why, in the first segment, 288 00:15:04,028 --> 00:15:06,113 you heard us talking about the bond that you and I have. 289 00:15:06,113 --> 00:15:08,532 It's because we were in some really dangerous areas, 290 00:15:08,532 --> 00:15:13,287 and I'm not prone to hyperbole or drama, but in that Operation Praying Sage, 291 00:15:13,579 --> 00:15:16,749 I didn't know if I was going to make it home, and 292 00:15:16,749 --> 00:15:20,044 I didn't know if I was going to be killed or wind up in a Haitian prison. 293 00:15:20,336 --> 00:15:22,838 And honestly, it was 50/50 on what I would have chosen 294 00:15:22,838 --> 00:15:24,173 right. The situation. 295 00:15:24,173 --> 00:15:26,091 But just briefly, we had gotten intelligence 296 00:15:26,091 --> 00:15:30,387 from our undercover team in Haiti that there was a bar, a club called 297 00:15:30,387 --> 00:15:31,430 Reginald's Place. 298 00:15:31,430 --> 00:15:33,390 Reginald was a suspected trafficker. 299 00:15:33,390 --> 00:15:36,101 And there were, what we were told, Latina girls, 300 00:15:36,101 --> 00:15:38,312 women from Dominican Republic and Venezuela. 301 00:15:38,312 --> 00:15:41,273 We confirmed the presence of these women. 302 00:15:41,273 --> 00:15:42,191 We have different ways 303 00:15:42,191 --> 00:15:42,942 when we're undercover 304 00:15:42,942 --> 00:15:46,320 so we don't exploit the women, you know, traumatize them 305 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,030 anymore than they already are traumatized. 306 00:15:48,030 --> 00:15:49,615 We're not going to do anything with them. 307 00:15:49,615 --> 00:15:53,994 But we were able to ascertain and determine they did not want to be there. 308 00:15:54,161 --> 00:15:55,287 There were ten women. 309 00:15:55,287 --> 00:15:58,248 They had 14, 15 kids between them, 310 00:15:58,248 --> 00:16:00,125 and we knew they wanted out. 311 00:16:00,125 --> 00:16:01,669 But when we went in there, 312 00:16:01,669 --> 00:16:05,422 we had to go a couple of different nights just to kind of get the layout, 313 00:16:05,422 --> 00:16:08,592 and that is what I remember that brought us to that point. 314 00:16:08,592 --> 00:16:10,594 And this was about the time we started to bring you in 315 00:16:10,594 --> 00:16:12,429 and the aftercare team to start to prepare, 316 00:16:12,429 --> 00:16:14,974 but there still was a lot we needed to do in the club 317 00:16:14,974 --> 00:16:16,517 to get the evidence we needed. 318 00:16:17,559 --> 00:16:19,019 That's insane 319 00:16:19,019 --> 00:16:21,563 as far as all the different things that you have to do. 320 00:16:21,563 --> 00:16:24,900 One thing that you guys do that I've always respected 321 00:16:24,900 --> 00:16:28,612 about the ops team is you make sure that you have top cover. 322 00:16:28,737 --> 00:16:32,032 So, what happened with 323 00:16:32,366 --> 00:16:35,369 having top cover? What changed? 324 00:16:35,494 --> 00:16:40,457 What are the things that you felt like were the - why did it get dangerous? 325 00:16:40,499 --> 00:16:46,130 Because usually operations go in, the police, law enforcement arrest 326 00:16:46,171 --> 00:16:50,676 the bad guys, survivors come with me or aftercare support services. 327 00:16:51,218 --> 00:16:54,304 And it's pretty cut and dry as far as operations. 328 00:16:54,555 --> 00:16:58,267 This one, to say that you didn't know if you were going to come home alive, 329 00:16:58,267 --> 00:17:00,310 I agree with that. I didn't know if I would. 330 00:17:00,310 --> 00:17:01,979 But how did we get to that point? 331 00:17:01,979 --> 00:17:04,314 Yeah, and it's important to when you talk about top cover 332 00:17:04,314 --> 00:17:06,191 and our audience might say, well, what does that mean? 333 00:17:06,191 --> 00:17:09,695 Well, Operation Underground Railroad is not a vigilante organization. 334 00:17:09,695 --> 00:17:12,239 We go in through the front door or we don't go in at all. 335 00:17:12,239 --> 00:17:14,324 We have no arrest authority on our own. 336 00:17:14,324 --> 00:17:16,368 We are not a law enforcement entity. 337 00:17:16,368 --> 00:17:18,037 We support law enforcement. 338 00:17:18,037 --> 00:17:21,749 So our top cover are police units, prosecutors, 339 00:17:21,957 --> 00:17:24,752 politicians who have authority to let us be 340 00:17:24,752 --> 00:17:27,755 there. We're signed up as confidential sources of information. 341 00:17:27,963 --> 00:17:30,883 So, in this case, and we had worked previous operations in Haiti, 342 00:17:30,883 --> 00:17:34,178 and you and I were involved in some of those. One where we got 343 00:17:34,178 --> 00:17:37,556 real arrested that maybe we can talk about too as opposed to being fake 344 00:17:37,556 --> 00:17:40,809 arrested as our operators are oftentimes to keep the ruse going. 345 00:17:41,018 --> 00:17:45,481 But we were able to get two judges who worked in the district, 346 00:17:45,481 --> 00:17:49,026 who had jurisdiction over the district where Reginald's Club was operating 347 00:17:49,193 --> 00:17:50,986 and where these women were being exploited. 348 00:17:50,986 --> 00:17:52,029 So, we met with them 349 00:17:52,029 --> 00:17:55,949 on a few different occasions beforehand to get signed up, to get the permission. 350 00:17:56,366 --> 00:17:59,745 But it wasn't until we actually had sort 351 00:17:59,745 --> 00:18:03,248 of physical evidence of these women wanting to get out. 352 00:18:03,457 --> 00:18:06,001 And you remember the story of the note, right? 353 00:18:06,001 --> 00:18:08,754 And we gave that and showed you that a day or two later. 354 00:18:08,754 --> 00:18:10,214 I'll just really quickly tell that story. 355 00:18:10,214 --> 00:18:12,216 So our operators were there, 356 00:18:12,216 --> 00:18:16,970 and one operator had a note slipped to him. And it was something in his hand. 357 00:18:16,970 --> 00:18:19,181 And he went to the bathroom and he opened it up. 358 00:18:19,181 --> 00:18:20,849 Well he didn't speak Spanish, but he went and 359 00:18:20,849 --> 00:18:22,226 he asked me, "What does it say?" 360 00:18:22,226 --> 00:18:25,104 And it said, "Ayudanos por favor," 361 00:18:25,104 --> 00:18:27,064 which means "Help us, please." 362 00:18:27,064 --> 00:18:27,940 And this is incredible. 363 00:18:27,940 --> 00:18:31,276 In the past, we've had victims, you know, tell us why. 364 00:18:31,276 --> 00:18:33,487 You know, get us out of here. We don't want to be here. 365 00:18:33,487 --> 00:18:36,281 But this was a note that said, "Help us, please." 366 00:18:36,281 --> 00:18:38,283 So we immediately called back to headquarters. 367 00:18:38,283 --> 00:18:39,701 We told you. 368 00:18:39,701 --> 00:18:42,454 And just the power of that, I tell you - in all the operations 369 00:18:42,454 --> 00:18:45,499 I've led, it's been over 20 with Operation Underground Railroad of the past 370 00:18:45,499 --> 00:18:48,377 ten years, have never had something like that. 371 00:18:48,377 --> 00:18:51,839 But then, as you mentioned, the judges, we we thought they were with us, 372 00:18:51,839 --> 00:18:54,007 but then we weren't really sure. 373 00:18:54,007 --> 00:18:57,845 And unfortunately, you took the brunt of it when you realized 374 00:18:57,845 --> 00:19:00,013 the judges weren't on our side. 375 00:19:00,013 --> 00:19:03,517 So take us through once the strike team goes in on that Friday night, 376 00:19:03,725 --> 00:19:05,644 once we secure the place. 377 00:19:05,644 --> 00:19:08,647 First of all, there were no other clients there other than our operators. 378 00:19:08,647 --> 00:19:11,316 So that night was, that should have been red flags right there. 379 00:19:11,316 --> 00:19:12,484 Someone was tipped off, right? 380 00:19:12,484 --> 00:19:15,487 Because that place would have been bouncing with normal clients. 381 00:19:15,654 --> 00:19:17,865 Reginald wasn't there. Okay. That's another thing. 382 00:19:17,865 --> 00:19:20,284 He's always there we had heard on a Friday night. 383 00:19:20,284 --> 00:19:23,078 Tell us about once the women were all brought into the courtyard 384 00:19:23,078 --> 00:19:26,165 and you were there, you had an interpreter who spoke Haitian Creole, 385 00:19:26,331 --> 00:19:29,251 Spanish, and English so you could talk to Haitian authorities, 386 00:19:29,251 --> 00:19:32,337 the Venezuelan survivors, and, of course, our team. 387 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,715 But what did the judges say? 388 00:19:34,715 --> 00:19:39,636 How did they treat you, and when did you realize, oh no, we're in some trouble here? 389 00:19:39,928 --> 00:19:40,846 Yeah. 390 00:19:40,846 --> 00:19:43,932 So the operation happened and I was thinking 391 00:19:43,932 --> 00:19:47,311 the bad guys, the traffickers had already been arrested. 392 00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:49,438 So that's when I go in. 393 00:19:49,438 --> 00:19:53,609 That's typically the standard procedure of how it happened. 394 00:19:53,609 --> 00:19:57,487 So I went in and a few minutes in realized 395 00:19:57,529 --> 00:20:01,658 the man I was talking to who was Haitian but spoke English, 396 00:20:02,576 --> 00:20:03,869 he was one of the traffickers. 397 00:20:03,869 --> 00:20:05,787 He was one of the main guys, 398 00:20:05,787 --> 00:20:08,790 and he was now talking to the judges, 399 00:20:08,790 --> 00:20:11,835 the law enforcement, and basically telling them what to do. 400 00:20:12,878 --> 00:20:16,131 So he was saying things like, "They can't leave. 401 00:20:16,131 --> 00:20:19,092 They're in debt bondage. They don't have their passports." 402 00:20:19,092 --> 00:20:21,845 Didn't he even say they're the property, right? 403 00:20:21,845 --> 00:20:22,596 Their own. 404 00:20:22,596 --> 00:20:23,639 And you think, "Wait a sec, 405 00:20:23,639 --> 00:20:27,976 this is like 1800s United States, right? Where it's their property." 406 00:20:27,976 --> 00:20:29,311 I mean, that was unbelievable. 407 00:20:29,311 --> 00:20:31,521 And when you're walkie talkie-ing back to us, 408 00:20:31,521 --> 00:20:34,358 I was outside with the unit, you know, getting ready with the trucks 409 00:20:34,358 --> 00:20:36,360 that were able to take the women to safety. 410 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:37,361 I just can't imagine. 411 00:20:37,361 --> 00:20:39,363 How did you keep your cool at that moment? 412 00:20:39,363 --> 00:20:42,783 How did you continue to negotiate when, essentially, the trafficker's 413 00:20:42,783 --> 00:20:45,285 telling the judge, "Those women are our property" 414 00:20:45,285 --> 00:20:48,288 and the judge is turning to you, those women are his property? 415 00:20:48,664 --> 00:20:50,249 That is exactly what happened. 416 00:20:50,249 --> 00:20:52,584 How I kept my cool, I honestly don't know. 417 00:20:52,584 --> 00:20:53,627 I think sometimes you get 418 00:20:53,627 --> 00:20:57,547 put in these situations, and then you see how you'll react. 419 00:20:57,547 --> 00:21:02,761 But I remember being there and I think it was a 420 00:21:03,011 --> 00:21:05,973 miraculous experience as far as I wasn't fearful 421 00:21:05,973 --> 00:21:08,100 for some reason. It was, 422 00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:10,769 "This is the time that you fight for justice." 423 00:21:10,769 --> 00:21:15,649 And I remember that feeling just overwhelming me of 424 00:21:16,316 --> 00:21:20,320 you see these women, if you leave them, they're going to be beat. 425 00:21:20,737 --> 00:21:26,618 They might be killed. Their lives will never be free. 426 00:21:26,994 --> 00:21:30,998 And so I think when you're standing there and you're facing these traffickers 427 00:21:30,998 --> 00:21:33,959 and this corruption that's happening, 428 00:21:34,293 --> 00:21:36,753 you have this sense of 429 00:21:36,753 --> 00:21:39,631 are you willing to do what your mission says? 430 00:21:39,631 --> 00:21:40,007 Right. 431 00:21:40,007 --> 00:21:43,010 Are you actually willing to put your life on the line? 432 00:21:43,051 --> 00:21:47,889 Or is it all just, oh if it's easy, then we'll help. 433 00:21:47,931 --> 00:21:51,226 Oh if there's no problems, then we'll help. 434 00:21:51,226 --> 00:21:53,854 Or is it, we will go to the darkest corners. 435 00:21:53,854 --> 00:21:56,940 We will help those that no one else is coming for. 436 00:21:56,940 --> 00:22:00,736 And so, seeing those survivors and hearing them 437 00:22:00,736 --> 00:22:03,780 say, "Please don't leave us." 438 00:22:04,239 --> 00:22:07,242 And my broken Spanish, as you know, 439 00:22:07,326 --> 00:22:08,493 I was. You're quite good. 440 00:22:08,493 --> 00:22:11,413 Don't sell yourself short. Mucho gracias. That's good. 441 00:22:13,081 --> 00:22:14,916 Matt's helped me with a lot of my Spanish 442 00:22:14,916 --> 00:22:17,919 and specifically correcting me, which has been good. 443 00:22:17,919 --> 00:22:21,173 But hearing them say, "Please don't leave us," 444 00:22:21,298 --> 00:22:25,677 and seeing their faces of bravery, 445 00:22:26,011 --> 00:22:29,765 that they would stand up and say all of those things 446 00:22:30,015 --> 00:22:32,976 while the traffickers are there saying, "We own you." 447 00:22:32,976 --> 00:22:36,813 While the law enforcement, judges, all those people were there saying, 448 00:22:36,813 --> 00:22:37,814 "Sorry, you can't leave." 449 00:22:37,814 --> 00:22:42,152 And those girls being so brave, I just don't think you can leave anyone. 450 00:22:42,152 --> 00:22:44,029 And that's when that sense of 451 00:22:44,029 --> 00:22:46,865 we will stand up for justice really rose up inside. 452 00:22:46,865 --> 00:22:49,701 Yeah. And you didn't leave them and you put yourself at risk. 453 00:22:49,701 --> 00:22:51,119 And you remember, there were a lot of miracles 454 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:52,788 throughout, a lot of people praying for us. 455 00:22:52,788 --> 00:22:53,997 The operation obviously Praying 456 00:22:53,997 --> 00:22:56,375 Sage. Sage Robbins was home praying. 457 00:22:56,375 --> 00:22:58,627 But you remember, we said a prayer back in headquarters, 458 00:22:58,627 --> 00:23:00,754 and actually, I don't know if you remember this when it was happening 459 00:23:00,754 --> 00:23:03,548 because you weren't on the headsets of our headquarters team. 460 00:23:03,548 --> 00:23:06,218 We had someone say a prayer and the minute they concluded the prayer - 461 00:23:06,218 --> 00:23:08,345 and again, I'm not making this up. It was literally the minute 462 00:23:08,345 --> 00:23:11,056 the prayer was concluded - a soft in the judge's heart 463 00:23:11,056 --> 00:23:13,350 let him see why we need to get these girls out. 464 00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:15,519 The judge said, "I'm tired. It's late. You know what? 465 00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:17,437 Whatever you want, you can take the women." 466 00:23:17,437 --> 00:23:18,105 Unbelievable. 467 00:23:18,105 --> 00:23:20,649 Now we didn't have their passports, but we made a decision right there 468 00:23:20,649 --> 00:23:22,651 and then: let's get the women out of this hell. 469 00:23:22,651 --> 00:23:24,277 We've already got different clothes for them. 470 00:23:24,277 --> 00:23:26,405 We've got different hotels and safe houses. 471 00:23:26,405 --> 00:23:30,325 But talk about when you went in because the women said, remember, "We'll leave." 472 00:23:30,325 --> 00:23:32,702 And you asked them all, because didn't the judge say, 473 00:23:32,702 --> 00:23:36,123 "Hey, they can go with you as long as they say they want to go." 474 00:23:36,123 --> 00:23:38,458 And you asked them and all of them, "Sí, sí, sí," Right? 475 00:23:38,458 --> 00:23:39,584 Yes, yes, yes. 476 00:23:39,584 --> 00:23:40,335 You go in 477 00:23:40,335 --> 00:23:40,919 because they said, 478 00:23:40,919 --> 00:23:42,421 "All we want to do is just take our stuff" 479 00:23:42,421 --> 00:23:44,673 because their whole life was in one suitcase. 480 00:23:44,673 --> 00:23:48,218 Tell us briefly about that when you went in and again, you think 481 00:23:48,218 --> 00:23:49,845 is that the beginning of the end there? 482 00:23:49,845 --> 00:23:52,013 No, that's the end of the beginning of their trials 483 00:23:52,013 --> 00:23:53,640 that you almost got locked in. 484 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:54,307 The women almost 485 00:23:54,307 --> 00:23:58,019 got locked in that brothel, didn't you? When you went in. Correct. 486 00:23:58,019 --> 00:24:00,188 Yeah. So the judge - yeah, he was getting tired. 487 00:24:00,188 --> 00:24:01,857 He said, "Fine, you can take them. 488 00:24:01,857 --> 00:24:03,191 You're not going to have the passports. 489 00:24:03,191 --> 00:24:06,903 But if the women verbally say they want to go, then they can leave." 490 00:24:07,362 --> 00:24:11,032 So, we were in the courtyard and then we had to walk 491 00:24:11,032 --> 00:24:14,494 through the main room where the brothel was. 492 00:24:14,494 --> 00:24:18,540 And then in the back is where the women would be held and would sleep. 493 00:24:18,540 --> 00:24:20,625 That was their living quarters. 494 00:24:20,625 --> 00:24:23,753 So we're walking through the brothel and then there's 495 00:24:23,753 --> 00:24:27,382 a bar area right before going to where the women sleep. 496 00:24:27,757 --> 00:24:31,595 And so all the women, they let them walk in to go get their suitcase, 497 00:24:32,137 --> 00:24:37,017 and then one of the main traffickers, 498 00:24:37,350 --> 00:24:40,353 I see him pull a padlock out of his pocket. 499 00:24:40,770 --> 00:24:43,565 And I'm thinking, "What on earth is going on?" 500 00:24:43,565 --> 00:24:48,069 And then I see him shut the door, and he got the part 501 00:24:48,069 --> 00:24:52,115 where he was getting ready to lock them in, literally lock them in. 502 00:24:52,657 --> 00:24:54,868 And I don't know how this happened. 503 00:24:54,868 --> 00:24:55,702 I couldn't explain it. 504 00:24:55,702 --> 00:24:58,663 I don't think it was of my own strength. 505 00:24:58,663 --> 00:25:03,418 But he went to put the padlock on and I got my finger in between. 506 00:25:03,543 --> 00:25:07,714 So he's pushing down on the padlock and trying to lock them in. 507 00:25:07,881 --> 00:25:11,760 And all I can think is, "Is if he gets this lock on, 508 00:25:12,219 --> 00:25:14,971 there's no way I can help these girls." Because 509 00:25:14,971 --> 00:25:17,349 they'll say, "Sorry." We know the judges and the military. 510 00:25:17,349 --> 00:25:19,351 Who was there, police? "Sorry, they don't have the key. 511 00:25:19,351 --> 00:25:20,894 You know what? Oh well." Yup. 512 00:25:20,894 --> 00:25:21,770 And for your finger. 513 00:25:21,770 --> 00:25:22,812 So again, not hyperbole, 514 00:25:22,812 --> 00:25:26,441 not drama, but that operation was saved literally by the width of a finger. 515 00:25:26,775 --> 00:25:27,275 Yeah. 516 00:25:27,275 --> 00:25:31,112 I mean, and for that part of it and I thought he 517 00:25:31,112 --> 00:25:33,365 was going to break my finger because he was pushing on it so hard. 518 00:25:33,365 --> 00:25:33,990 And then somehow 519 00:25:33,990 --> 00:25:38,703 I was able to rip the lock out of his hand and how myself being able to rip 520 00:25:38,703 --> 00:25:42,666 a lock out of a man's hand, I have no idea how that happened. 521 00:25:42,999 --> 00:25:45,835 But then, I see from across the room, 522 00:25:45,835 --> 00:25:48,838 somebody throws another padlock 523 00:25:48,964 --> 00:25:53,593 to one of the "security guards" on their team. 524 00:25:53,677 --> 00:25:55,220 And there was a full door, 525 00:25:55,220 --> 00:25:59,015 and they were going to try and lock them in that full door. 526 00:25:59,224 --> 00:26:02,686 And so, where it's like, okay, we got the one lock. 527 00:26:02,686 --> 00:26:03,270 And then that's 528 00:26:03,270 --> 00:26:08,191 when I jumped up on top of the bar to go up and against that trafficker. 529 00:26:08,191 --> 00:26:11,403 And we've got video and audio and you're saying, "No, no, stop, stop." 530 00:26:11,403 --> 00:26:12,988 And we only saw that afterwards. 531 00:26:12,988 --> 00:26:14,864 Where is that first padlock today? 532 00:26:14,864 --> 00:26:18,118 Somebody at O.U.R. has it. 533 00:26:18,118 --> 00:26:18,743 But you have it. 534 00:26:18,743 --> 00:26:21,663 You walked out with it. It's now in our sort of museum, so to speak. 535 00:26:21,663 --> 00:26:21,997 Yeah. 536 00:26:21,997 --> 00:26:26,042 I put it in my pocket and my thought was, "This lock will never enslave 537 00:26:26,042 --> 00:26:26,751 someone again." 538 00:26:26,751 --> 00:26:27,586 Yeah. 539 00:26:27,586 --> 00:26:30,839 It was a harrowing four or five days after that where we're running from 540 00:26:30,839 --> 00:26:33,842 hotel to hotel, safe house to safe house, not knowing, again, 541 00:26:33,842 --> 00:26:36,595 if we were going to be killed or wind up in a Haitian prison. 542 00:26:36,595 --> 00:26:39,264 There is a documentary called "Sage's Prayer" out there. 543 00:26:39,264 --> 00:26:42,058 We're gonna start distributing that more widely. A spoiler alert: 544 00:26:42,058 --> 00:26:45,395 we do survive the operation, but just incredible. 545 00:26:45,395 --> 00:26:47,731 We'll do future episodes, hopefully on, you know, 546 00:26:47,731 --> 00:26:49,149 some of what the survivors are doing today. 547 00:26:49,149 --> 00:26:50,692 They're doing so well, as you know. 548 00:26:50,692 --> 00:26:53,403 And you and I were on an ops call just a couple of days ago 549 00:26:53,403 --> 00:26:56,948 when we found out that Reginald, who wasn't arrested in our original op 550 00:26:56,948 --> 00:26:59,909 because of corruption, fortunately was arrested subsequently. 551 00:27:00,035 --> 00:27:03,622 And he's getting his day in Haitian court finally in the coming weeks. 552 00:27:03,622 --> 00:27:05,290 And we really hope justice will be done. 553 00:27:05,290 --> 00:27:08,793 So anyway, that was crazy but just such an honor to serve with you 554 00:27:08,793 --> 00:27:11,630 on that operation. Same to you, Matt. 555 00:27:11,630 --> 00:27:14,466 And those survivors are absolutely incredible. 556 00:27:14,466 --> 00:27:16,509 You think about how brave they are. 557 00:27:16,509 --> 00:27:19,596 And throughout any operation 558 00:27:19,596 --> 00:27:23,224 that we've been involved with, the true heroes are the survivors. 559 00:27:23,558 --> 00:27:27,020 And not just in that moment, but the long term and how they go through 560 00:27:27,020 --> 00:27:29,147 their healing process in that journey. 561 00:27:29,147 --> 00:27:34,194 So thank you all for listening to this part of our podcast, 562 00:27:34,194 --> 00:27:35,403 and hopefully 563 00:27:35,403 --> 00:27:39,282 you are finding this educational and that you'll feel like you understand 564 00:27:39,282 --> 00:27:44,120 a little bit more of what O.U.R. does but also what trafficking looks like. 565 00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:45,914 And we're going to talk about different countries 566 00:27:45,914 --> 00:27:47,791 and what it looks like in different countries, 567 00:27:47,791 --> 00:27:51,544 so that there is a more broad understanding of what human 568 00:27:51,544 --> 00:27:52,712 trafficking is. 569 00:27:52,712 --> 00:27:55,590 So stay tuned and we will be back right after this. 570 00:27:57,634 --> 00:27:58,593 I want to thank our 571 00:27:58,593 --> 00:28:02,305 sponsor, the OUR Store, for supporting this podcast. 572 00:28:02,722 --> 00:28:06,142 Did you know the OUR Rescue Store features survivor-made items? 573 00:28:06,476 --> 00:28:07,811 In this critical fight, 574 00:28:07,811 --> 00:28:10,271 they serve as symbols of hope. 575 00:28:10,271 --> 00:28:13,858 By choosing to purchase one of these beautifully handcrafted items, 576 00:28:14,067 --> 00:28:16,986 you will impact the healing journey of survivors 577 00:28:16,986 --> 00:28:19,989 and help them reclaim their lives in the process. 578 00:28:20,532 --> 00:28:21,783 We encourage you to shop 579 00:28:21,783 --> 00:28:24,869 survivor-made items on the OUR Rescue website. 580 00:28:25,203 --> 00:28:29,874 It might only be a few dollars to you, but it makes a world of difference to them. 581 00:28:30,542 --> 00:28:35,588 And, in case you need any extra motivation, use promo code Voices10 582 00:28:35,588 --> 00:28:41,553 for 10% off your purchase at store.ourrescue.org. 583 00:28:41,803 --> 00:28:44,806 That's Voices10 at 584 00:28:44,889 --> 00:28:47,851 store.ourrescue.org. 585 00:28:52,230 --> 00:28:55,150 And welcome back to Voices for Freedom, an anti-human 586 00:28:55,150 --> 00:28:58,611 trafficking podcast, brought to you by Operation Underground Railroad. 587 00:28:58,611 --> 00:29:01,781 My partner, Jessica Mass, and I have been talking over the past couple 588 00:29:01,823 --> 00:29:05,034 segments about our backgrounds, both on the aftercare side 589 00:29:05,034 --> 00:29:08,997 and the operation side, talking about Operation Praying Sage in Haiti. 590 00:29:09,205 --> 00:29:11,958 But for this last segment, I mean, for the years we've been there, 591 00:29:11,958 --> 00:29:13,835 I'll speak for you as well 592 00:29:13,835 --> 00:29:17,505 right now. I'm sure there are thousands of really impactful moments, but maybe 593 00:29:17,672 --> 00:29:20,592 what is one or what are two that come to mind? 594 00:29:20,592 --> 00:29:21,885 We can just kind of go back and forth. 595 00:29:21,885 --> 00:29:24,971 But just to give the audience an idea of some of the miracles, 596 00:29:24,971 --> 00:29:27,390 some of the things, the hard moments, the joys, the, 597 00:29:27,390 --> 00:29:29,392 you know, the scary times, the sad times. 598 00:29:29,392 --> 00:29:32,187 But what is one thing that has stood out about, 599 00:29:32,187 --> 00:29:35,190 you know, your time and your career here at Operation Underground Railroad? 600 00:29:35,732 --> 00:29:37,150 Well there are definitely a lot, 601 00:29:37,150 --> 00:29:39,444 and I think what comes to mind 602 00:29:39,444 --> 00:29:43,406 first is what I've said, is the survivors are the real heroes 603 00:29:43,406 --> 00:29:44,783 and that human 604 00:29:44,783 --> 00:29:48,119 trafficking looks so different in so many different regions of the world. 605 00:29:48,661 --> 00:29:52,457 So I remember my first operation that I was getting ready 606 00:29:52,457 --> 00:29:56,419 to go on and help with aftercare was to Africa. 607 00:29:56,419 --> 00:29:57,504 That's right. 608 00:29:57,504 --> 00:29:59,506 And I was reading their case files. 609 00:29:59,506 --> 00:30:02,383 I made the mistake of going to Barnes and Noble, and I was going to read the case 610 00:30:02,383 --> 00:30:06,805 file and have this great atmosphere, very relaxing. 611 00:30:07,138 --> 00:30:12,227 And I open up their file and I start reading about child sacrifice. 612 00:30:12,435 --> 00:30:17,398 And I had never worked with any child that had been sacrificed before. 613 00:30:17,398 --> 00:30:18,441 I didn't know what that meant. 614 00:30:18,441 --> 00:30:20,276 I didn't know the context of human 615 00:30:20,276 --> 00:30:24,072 trafficking of child sacrifice and how that all went together. 616 00:30:24,614 --> 00:30:27,200 And so I remember reading one of the files 617 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:32,121 about how a child was kidnapped from their home, 618 00:30:32,872 --> 00:30:35,875 and then that kidnapper sold that person 619 00:30:36,042 --> 00:30:39,045 to a witch doctor 620 00:30:39,295 --> 00:30:43,049 who then cut open the back of their head 621 00:30:43,299 --> 00:30:46,553 and drained their blood into a mason jar. 622 00:30:47,136 --> 00:30:50,765 And then they would cut off their genitals and they would sell the blood 623 00:30:50,765 --> 00:30:53,768 and the genitals to a buyer. 624 00:30:54,269 --> 00:30:58,106 And so there was these multiple different situations 625 00:30:58,106 --> 00:31:00,900 that this kid went through and trauma. 626 00:31:00,900 --> 00:31:03,361 And, as I'm sitting there 627 00:31:03,361 --> 00:31:06,322 in Barnes and Noble, I just started weeping 628 00:31:06,489 --> 00:31:10,493 because of trying to imagine what these kids would go through 629 00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:13,621 and also saying, "How can I even help? 630 00:31:13,621 --> 00:31:17,667 What can I do to help in aftercare for these children?" 631 00:31:18,543 --> 00:31:22,046 And there's been miracle after miracle 632 00:31:22,046 --> 00:31:25,049 with different situations of kids that have lived through this. 633 00:31:25,258 --> 00:31:29,304 A lot of times the girls won't survive because of the amount of blood 634 00:31:29,304 --> 00:31:34,017 that they lose and how they're mutilating the genitals. 635 00:31:34,017 --> 00:31:38,605 And so, there's a few girls that I've worked with that have lived through this. 636 00:31:38,605 --> 00:31:41,399 There's lots of boys that I've worked with. 637 00:31:41,399 --> 00:31:45,528 But I remember finding out that there was a place in Australia 638 00:31:45,528 --> 00:31:48,865 that our partners worked with that were able to do 639 00:31:49,282 --> 00:31:52,035 genital reconstruction surgery. 640 00:31:52,035 --> 00:31:54,787 And that was kind of the first hope that I had. 641 00:31:54,787 --> 00:31:59,876 And it said to me, "If they can help in that situation, what can we do?" 642 00:32:00,126 --> 00:32:04,297 And so, we've been able to have have kids come over here 643 00:32:04,297 --> 00:32:08,009 from a few different countries that have had surgeries, 644 00:32:08,343 --> 00:32:09,802 and we've got to be a part of that 645 00:32:09,802 --> 00:32:13,222 and seeing them going from not being able to walk, to be able to walk. 646 00:32:13,765 --> 00:32:18,227 There's children that we've seen that have been adopted that you just think, 647 00:32:18,770 --> 00:32:21,773 "Wow." Because of O.U.R., 648 00:32:22,190 --> 00:32:25,860 And really saying, "I don't think we can help." 649 00:32:26,277 --> 00:32:30,031 But then these kids, seeing their lives completely transformed. 650 00:32:30,031 --> 00:32:34,118 And when I was at that aftercare home in Africa, I remember walking in 651 00:32:34,118 --> 00:32:37,747 and seeing those kids for the first time and they were happy. 652 00:32:37,747 --> 00:32:40,667 They're up playing soccer. They're doing crafts. 653 00:32:40,667 --> 00:32:42,418 I've seen some of the footage. It's wonderful. 654 00:32:42,418 --> 00:32:46,506 And so, that impacted my life so much because it gave me hope - 655 00:32:47,090 --> 00:32:48,299 hope for those kids 656 00:32:48,299 --> 00:32:52,637 but hope with the hundreds of other kids that we work with where it 657 00:32:52,637 --> 00:32:57,141 said to me, "If they can have joy, then let's fight with them 658 00:32:57,350 --> 00:33:01,562 for joy and for healing and for whether that's surgeries, whether that's mental 659 00:33:01,562 --> 00:33:04,857 health therapy, whatever that looks like, let's fight alongside them." 660 00:33:04,857 --> 00:33:07,026 So that's been one of my most impactful. 661 00:33:07,026 --> 00:33:08,778 You talk about for the one, right? 662 00:33:08,778 --> 00:33:10,405 If we would have done all of this 663 00:33:10,405 --> 00:33:14,701 just for that one or just for any one of those kids there, that's incredible. 664 00:33:15,243 --> 00:33:18,246 Well, I was thinking as well, and none of mine are going to be, again, 665 00:33:18,246 --> 00:33:22,667 as impactful as yours, because it deals with these amazing survivors, 666 00:33:22,667 --> 00:33:24,210 but one that I referenced 667 00:33:24,210 --> 00:33:27,964 in one of the earlier segments, you know, getting real arrested, right? With you. 668 00:33:28,339 --> 00:33:31,300 Again, we get fake arrested oftentimes 669 00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:34,470 because we can't let the traffickers know that it was a setup, right? 670 00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:38,141 We have to let them know, or let them believe, that that we were also 671 00:33:38,141 --> 00:33:41,144 getting arrested and taken to the U.S. Embassy or deported back to the U.S. 672 00:33:41,561 --> 00:33:45,440 But, in Operation Toussaint, as you know, the predecessor to that, 673 00:33:45,648 --> 00:33:50,528 in February of 2017, we had the whole operation site setup, 674 00:33:50,528 --> 00:33:52,196 but it was so big that the unit 675 00:33:52,196 --> 00:33:54,407 we were working with, their child protection brigade, 676 00:33:54,407 --> 00:33:56,200 could only secure part of it. 677 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,871 Well, the military, you remember, then they brought in to secure the rest of it, 678 00:33:59,871 --> 00:34:03,583 but didn't tell the army that the Americans, the gringos, 679 00:34:03,583 --> 00:34:03,791 Right? 680 00:34:03,791 --> 00:34:06,794 Leblanc were working with law enforcement. 681 00:34:06,794 --> 00:34:09,338 So when we left after we got arrested, 682 00:34:09,338 --> 00:34:13,092 the owner of the club thought that we were leaving without paying 683 00:34:13,092 --> 00:34:16,095 even though we left money in the rooms. We actually overpaid the whole thing. 684 00:34:16,429 --> 00:34:18,431 So they said, "Arrest him, arrest him, arrest him." 685 00:34:18,431 --> 00:34:22,310 And, you remember, you and I got pulled out of a car, got thrown down, literally, 686 00:34:22,310 --> 00:34:24,228 right? Had rifles in our backs. 687 00:34:24,228 --> 00:34:26,939 And I remember looking over at you, and you had on your baseball cap 688 00:34:26,939 --> 00:34:29,192 and your bill was the only thing holding your head up. 689 00:34:29,192 --> 00:34:32,528 And I remember thinking, "Oh my gosh. How are we going to get out of this?" 690 00:34:32,779 --> 00:34:34,489 Our advanced team had already gone. 691 00:34:34,489 --> 00:34:36,282 I didn't speak Haitian Creole. 692 00:34:36,282 --> 00:34:38,659 The French that I had was leaving me at the time. 693 00:34:38,659 --> 00:34:40,703 How am I going to communicate to them? 694 00:34:40,703 --> 00:34:42,246 And I just said a prayer. 695 00:34:42,246 --> 00:34:46,584 I said, "Lord, please. Somehow, we're trying to rescue your precious children. 696 00:34:46,584 --> 00:34:47,919 We've had an amazing success. 697 00:34:47,919 --> 00:34:49,921 We've gotten 29 girls out of this. 698 00:34:49,921 --> 00:34:51,005 Traffickers have been arrested. 699 00:34:51,005 --> 00:34:55,468 However, half of our team is here caught behind enemy lines, and we can't get out." 700 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,388 And, as soon as I finished praying, Guesno 701 00:34:59,388 --> 00:35:01,599 Mardy - if any of you know the story of that, 702 00:35:01,599 --> 00:35:04,936 the father of Gardy Mardy. And he speaks Creole and French and English, 703 00:35:04,936 --> 00:35:08,231 and he was not even supposed to be in that area of the club in the resort. 704 00:35:08,231 --> 00:35:10,608 He was supposed to be probably two kilometers away. 705 00:35:10,608 --> 00:35:13,569 This place was so vast. He pulls up. 706 00:35:13,653 --> 00:35:17,406 And I remember seeing him out corner of his eye and saying, in English, "Guesno, 707 00:35:17,406 --> 00:35:20,827 can you please tell this guy who's got his gun in my back 708 00:35:21,285 --> 00:35:24,997 and next to you that we're with the good guys, we're working?" 709 00:35:25,540 --> 00:35:28,543 And then about 30 seconds later, they let us go. 710 00:35:28,668 --> 00:35:31,129 And I remember thinking a whole lot of things, right? 711 00:35:31,129 --> 00:35:33,256 The miracles, the power of prayer. But also, 712 00:35:34,257 --> 00:35:36,676 we always say in Operation Underground Railroad 713 00:35:36,676 --> 00:35:38,094 "We'll take calculated risks. 714 00:35:38,094 --> 00:35:40,972 We won't take dumb risks." Was that a dumb risk? 715 00:35:40,972 --> 00:35:43,724 But it's what you mentioned just a minute ago. We're willing to do those things. 716 00:35:43,724 --> 00:35:46,060 We're willing to take those risks because we don't want to, 717 00:35:46,060 --> 00:35:47,061 we don't have a death wish. 718 00:35:47,061 --> 00:35:50,189 But if, God forbid, something happens to us, you know, 719 00:35:50,231 --> 00:35:53,234 at least we can tell our maker, "Hey, we were doing the best we can." 720 00:35:53,234 --> 00:35:54,527 And that's what we did in that point. 721 00:35:54,527 --> 00:35:58,364 But when I joke that I've been arrested nine times in six different countries 722 00:35:58,364 --> 00:35:59,949 on these operations, it's true. 723 00:35:59,949 --> 00:36:02,118 But one time, briefly being detained, was not. 724 00:36:02,118 --> 00:36:03,661 And I don't know if you have any memories 725 00:36:03,661 --> 00:36:05,955 of that time there, but that was really, really dicey. 726 00:36:05,955 --> 00:36:08,040 I think in my mind, at least, that's what solidified 727 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,085 my partnership with you on the ops and the aftercare side forever. 728 00:36:11,544 --> 00:36:12,962 Well I definitely remember that. 729 00:36:12,962 --> 00:36:16,632 It's something you don't forget when you have a gun to your back, 730 00:36:16,632 --> 00:36:23,181 and I do remember the owner running up and screaming, "They need to pay. 731 00:36:23,181 --> 00:36:24,015 They need to pay." 732 00:36:24,015 --> 00:36:28,227 And you being you, of course, you overpaid and you left money in the room. 733 00:36:28,394 --> 00:36:32,732 because you're always very by the book and make sure everybody has their fair 734 00:36:32,732 --> 00:36:35,735 share and things are taken care of the right way. 735 00:36:36,068 --> 00:36:39,488 So, I remember him running up and I do remember, very clearly, 736 00:36:39,488 --> 00:36:43,284 getting pulled out of that van and the few of us 737 00:36:43,284 --> 00:36:47,205 that were face down on the ground, and trying to move my head. 738 00:36:47,205 --> 00:36:52,001 But I had this hat on to cover up my hair, and they kept yelling at me, 739 00:36:52,001 --> 00:36:53,836 "Get your head down." And my neck was hurting. 740 00:36:53,836 --> 00:36:54,295 I know. 741 00:36:54,295 --> 00:36:58,299 But I will say, had you not seen Guesno, 742 00:36:58,299 --> 00:37:03,012 had you not seen him and however he shows up. I know. Total miracle. 743 00:37:03,012 --> 00:37:04,513 I don't know what would have happened. 744 00:37:04,513 --> 00:37:09,352 And I do remember being face down and thinking, "This could be it." 745 00:37:09,518 --> 00:37:13,481 Like this, like, you're processing because this doesn't go into your mind 746 00:37:13,481 --> 00:37:17,526 as you're planning an op, but then you're processing what's happening. 747 00:37:17,526 --> 00:37:23,157 And I was so grateful for you that day that you handled it. 748 00:37:23,157 --> 00:37:24,825 It's one of those things where I was like that, 749 00:37:24,825 --> 00:37:27,912 I somehow feel a little safe because Matt's here 750 00:37:27,912 --> 00:37:30,873 and he's going to figure out how to get us out of this. 751 00:37:30,873 --> 00:37:32,333 Well, we have a few more minutes still. 752 00:37:32,333 --> 00:37:34,126 Is there another one that comes to mind? 753 00:37:34,126 --> 00:37:35,670 I'm thinking of one I'll probably share at the end. 754 00:37:35,670 --> 00:37:36,754 But do you have another one? 755 00:37:36,754 --> 00:37:40,466 Because what you shared was so powerful Of the thousands of memories 756 00:37:40,466 --> 00:37:42,218 and other highlights and even some lowlights 757 00:37:42,218 --> 00:37:43,427 that we've had over the years. 758 00:37:43,427 --> 00:37:46,389 Anything finally you want to share here as we start to wrap up? 759 00:37:46,847 --> 00:37:49,141 Well, one of the most impactful things 760 00:37:49,141 --> 00:37:52,228 for me that I had no idea about trafficking was in the Middle East. 761 00:37:52,270 --> 00:37:52,770 Yeah. 762 00:37:52,770 --> 00:37:58,442 And how we first started working there was, we got a call of a survivor 763 00:37:58,776 --> 00:38:01,779 that had tried to end her life. 764 00:38:02,321 --> 00:38:08,411 And she was going to try and wrap a sheet around her neck and it didn't work. 765 00:38:08,411 --> 00:38:14,208 And so, as she was trying to do that, she told us that she said, 766 00:38:14,208 --> 00:38:18,421 "If I can't even end my life because of how awful I'm being treated here" - 767 00:38:18,421 --> 00:38:22,300 it was a survivor from Africa trafficked to the Middle East, being held 768 00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:28,848 in sexual slavery and labor trafficking. Just this horrible situation. 769 00:38:29,140 --> 00:38:32,018 And so she said, "If I can't end my life, 770 00:38:32,018 --> 00:38:35,354 then God, please help me escape tomorrow. 771 00:38:35,604 --> 00:38:38,733 And if there's any chance, 772 00:38:38,733 --> 00:38:41,736 please just give me eyes to see the time to get out." 773 00:38:41,986 --> 00:38:47,199 So, the person that was holding her in slavery had left the house 774 00:38:47,408 --> 00:38:50,911 and she went out through the window, running down the street, 775 00:38:50,911 --> 00:38:53,706 screaming in English because she spoke English. 776 00:38:53,706 --> 00:38:56,709 The majority of the people there spoke Arabic. 777 00:38:57,084 --> 00:39:00,796 And so nobody was even understanding what she was saying. 778 00:39:00,796 --> 00:39:04,008 Well, there was a man and a woman, a married couple 779 00:39:04,008 --> 00:39:07,011 there from Ireland, who heard her screaming. 780 00:39:07,511 --> 00:39:10,264 They took her into their home. 781 00:39:10,264 --> 00:39:12,975 And the - one of the people 782 00:39:12,975 --> 00:39:15,978 from where she was being held had chased her 783 00:39:16,395 --> 00:39:20,024 and went up to that door of the people from Ireland. 784 00:39:20,024 --> 00:39:23,319 And they started pounding on the door, "Give us back our slave. 785 00:39:23,319 --> 00:39:26,322 Give us back our slave," is what they were yelling. 786 00:39:26,405 --> 00:39:31,202 And this brave man from Ireland said, "Over my dead body will you take her." 787 00:39:31,660 --> 00:39:35,790 And then that person ended up contacting some of our operators, 788 00:39:35,956 --> 00:39:39,460 and then the operators at O.U.R. contacted me for aftercare. 789 00:39:39,460 --> 00:39:41,796 I ended up getting to meet her. 790 00:39:41,796 --> 00:39:42,963 She's amazing. 791 00:39:42,963 --> 00:39:46,801 There's so many different stories I could tell about her and how she has 792 00:39:47,385 --> 00:39:51,555 provided an amazing life for her son and all the different situations around that. 793 00:39:51,555 --> 00:39:53,891 But she is really a hero. 794 00:39:53,891 --> 00:39:56,936 She is somebody that 795 00:39:56,977 --> 00:40:02,066 because of her and her bravery, so many other people have been set free 796 00:40:02,066 --> 00:40:05,528 because of what she did and running down the street. 797 00:40:05,820 --> 00:40:07,029 Jessica, that's incredible. 798 00:40:07,029 --> 00:40:10,449 And, you know, we're a non-denominational, non-partisan organization, but 799 00:40:10,449 --> 00:40:15,704 I hope people can see that we are - believe in prayer, we believe in miracles, 800 00:40:15,955 --> 00:40:17,832 and we're going to continue to do all we can. 801 00:40:17,832 --> 00:40:22,503 And I'm just excited here as we start to wrap up this first episode, 802 00:40:22,503 --> 00:40:26,090 to think about what we have in front of us now for Voices for Freedom. 803 00:40:26,090 --> 00:40:27,341 So, Jessica, thank you. 804 00:40:27,341 --> 00:40:29,385 Good luck in the weeks to come as you'll be hosting 805 00:40:29,385 --> 00:40:32,555 episodes, and I'll do the same, and we'll start to to put it all together. 806 00:40:32,555 --> 00:40:35,933 So thank you, partner. Thanks for listening. 807 00:40:36,183 --> 00:40:37,893 Did you enjoy this episode? 808 00:40:37,893 --> 00:40:42,064 If so, please leave us a review and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. 809 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,733 If you have ideas for future episodes, 810 00:40:44,733 --> 00:40:48,737 email us at VoicesforFreedom@ourrescue.org. 811 00:40:49,029 --> 00:40:52,032 Lastly, we encourage you to join the fight. 812 00:40:52,074 --> 00:40:56,120 Make a difference today by donating at ourrescue.org, 813 00:40:56,328 --> 00:41:01,834 or text "Podcast" to 855-944-5646. 814 00:41:02,168 --> 00:41:07,882 Again, that number is 855-944-5646. Join us for the next episode of Voices for Freedom, an anti-trafficking podcast, where I have the privilege of interviewing undercover operator code name "Alex" from Southeast Asia. Alex will take us deep into one of the most iconic and emblematic rescue missions ever led by OUR Rescue. Join us next time.